Why No Stride Mutilations ?

[Aethelwulf]

Even if we could persuade ourselves that Kidney was BSMan, it does not necessarily follow that he killed Stride. My opinion is that Stride knew BSMan, and she pulled away from his attempt to pull her out of the yard, overbalanced and fell down. I think she then got up, without feeling threatened, and thoroughly admonished him, after which he departed. What happened after that is anyone's guess.

Cheer, George

If Kidney is assumed to be the killer, wrongly IMO, how are the seemingly connected points below addressed:

• We know for a fact JtR was out that night (Eddowes) a mere 45 mins to an hour after BS man/Stride incident
• BS man shouted a Jewish slur, likely at Schwartz, who was said to have a noticeable Jewish appearance
• Part of Eddowes' apron was found below the GSG, also seemingly venting frustration at the Jewish community

Are we to believe that Kidney shouted Lipski, killed stride then wrote the GSG and the ripper then happened to drop part of Eddowes apron beside the GSG? Or that BS man/Kidney killed Stride, and then there was another incident involving JtR and a Jewish slur minutes later, who then went on to write the GSG. The idea that JtR was watching and hijacked the Lipski comment and wrote the GSG is clearly stretching things too far/a load of rubbish.

IMO people are over thinking this. Surely the most logical explanation is BS insulted Schwartz, killed stride, wrote GSG, placed apron. Someone wrote about the BS man incident in a previous post somewhere 'JtR wouldn't have done that' - clearly more rubbish. How can any of us know what he would or wouldn't have done. Personally, I wouldn't be surprised if the ripper was gone before D got there with his cart. The interruption as such was likely the Schwartz incident itself - ripper has been seen but still wants to dispatch Stride, kills her (exact scenario of which we can only guess at), leaves on hunt for next victim.

[JeffHamm]

I'm on the fence as to Stride being a Ripper victim, which means I equally entertain the idea she was and wasn't. If she wasn't, I think, like Trevor, Kidney is more than worth a good look at. The most common killer is a person's partner, and that alone puts him in the focus to be eliminated if he can be. Given what we have, he can't be. Schwartz viewed B.S. from behind for the most part, and his description is pretty generic, but regardless, we have no description of Kidney to compare it to. Sure, one would expect the police to have considered him, but if, given Eddowes murder, they developed tunnel vision they could overlook what a more sober investigation might not. Trevor's concern that they could have dismissed a more mundane explanation for her murder is very valid.

On the other hand, if Stride is a Ripper victim, I tend to think that Kidney becomes an unlikely Ripper suspect (and therefore not Stride's killer). I can't really say why though, other than, from what we know about his actions and odd behaviour around asking for a "private detective", etc, seems to fit if he's genuinely upset over her death (not her killer), or trying to divert attention away from his involvement in her death (is her killer), but it seems odd if he's been killing multiple woman and therefore JtR (it draws too much attention to himself for one guilty of multiple murders). So to me, his actions seem to fit with either innocence or her murder only, but not with a multiple murderer in which one victim is close to him. I would have expected a very long interlude before another murder if he was JtR, or no further murders (if problems/anger that arose from his relationship with Stride was what was triggering him in the first place).

With our lack of knowledge about his appearance, we can't compare it with Schwartz's description to decide for ourselves if he deserved a closer look. Under the circumstances, the police may have erroneously lumped Stride in with Eddowes, and already under pressure to catch JtR, they diverted their resources to the series and made a mistake; that is a very real possibility and one that continues to occur today (the opposite also happens, where the police fail to recognize there is a series in the first place, slowing the investigation because information doesn't get collated - hindsight is 20/20 after all).

Anyway, I'm not pushing Kidney as Stride's killer, since I haven't decided if she is or is not part of the series, but I think he's a good candidate if she's not - good candidate doesn't mean I'm convinced he did kill her, only that I think he needs to be looked at and eliminated if he can be. Sadly, I don't think the information remains that allows us to eliminate him. We can speculate that the police at the time had that information, but as we know, mistakes do happen (as Trevor has pointed out), and if this is an example of "premature elimination", then perhaps it is our job to relook at that decision.

- Jeff

[Herlock Sholmes]

The quoted analysis surely has to be seen as reactionary, given the way it pretends that no-one ever thought of placing Lechmere in the frame...



In fact...

The time of the murder - breaks the previous pattern because Lechmere wasn't travelling to work on Sunday morning.
The location - unrelated to his work, and a couple of hundred yards from his mother's house.
The only murder commited south of the Whitechapel Road - it's where his mother lived, thus strongly connected.
The weapon used - not being on his way to work, Lechmere wouldn't have been wearing his work clothes or been carrying his usual knife.
The killer placing himself in the public domain when people were still moving about and risking being identified - yes: the single anomalous, hit-and-run murder took place in the very area where he had previously lived and was certainly known. Quelle surprise...

M.

But we’re talking about Ripper murders and not Lechmere murders. Do you really think that Lechmere couldn’t have carried his work knife unless he was wearing his work clothes?

[Mark J D]

The quoted analysis surely has to be seen as reactionary, given the way it pretends that no-one ever thought of placing Lechmere in the frame...

The time of the murder - irrelevant.
The location - irrelevant if you’re talking about Berner Street.
The only murder commited south of the Whitechapel Road - irrelevant.
The weapon used - how can we know this?
The killer placing himself in the public domain when people were still moving about and risking being identified - worth considering imo

In fact...

The time of the murder - breaks the previous pattern because Lechmere wasn't travelling to work on Sunday morning.
The location - unrelated to his work, and a couple of hundred yards from his mother's house.
The only murder commited south of the Whitechapel Road - it's where his mother lived, thus strongly connected.
The weapon used - not being on his way to work, Lechmere wouldn't have been wearing his work clothes or been carrying his usual knife.
The killer placing himself in the public domain when people were still moving about and risking being identified - yes: the single anomalous, hit-and-run murder took place in the very area where he had previously lived and was certainly known. Quelle surprise...

M.

[Herlock Sholmes]

You have missed of

The time of the murder - irrelevant.
The location - irrelevant if you’re talking about Berner Street.
The only murder commited south of the Whitechapel Road - irrelevant.
The weapon used - how can we know this?
The killer placing himself in the public domain when people were still moving about and risking being identified - worth considering imo.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Even though I’m undecided on whether it was a ripper murder your exaggerating the importance of your ‘points against.’

[Trevor Marriott]

Significant differences = no mutilations.

You have missed of

The time of the murder
The location
The only murder commited south of the Whitechapel Road
The weapon used
The killer placing himself in the public domain when people were still moving about and risking being identified

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Trevor Marriott]

The Police spoke to Kelly after the Eddowes murder, Edward Stanley after the Stride murder and Barnett after the Kelly murder. Why should we assume that they were so incompetent that they didn’t check Kidney fully? We can’t prove that they did but equally we can’t prove that they didn’t but we surely have to favour the former as being the likelier? How could they have known for example that Kidney wasn’t the ripper? They were under extreme pressure to catch this man of course.

Of course he could have given a false alibi which might have fooled the Police but as we have no records should we just assume that they didn’t stand him in front of Schwartz? Or Smith?

But you cannot assume anything with these ripper crimes, what would seem logical to us in the world we live in today may not have seemed logical to the police back then

The question is how reliable did the police think that Schwartz was he never got called to the inquest having witnessed a significant part of what might have been the lead up to Strides murder, or was it that the police could not find him. or that he gave false details or a false statement?

If the police belived that the same killer who murdered Eddowes first murdered Stride that would deflect away from the suspicion that Stride was the victim of a domestic murder, and if so then the perpetrator of that crime could not have been the ripper, the police investigation into Strides murder was tainted by the murder of Eddowes a short time later.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[FISHY1118]

Significant differences = no mutilations.

You keep posting as if the killer was consulting some kind of serial killers handbook as he was doing what he did Trevor and so any minor deviation from ‘the plan’ meant that it wasn’t him.

Ive been undecided on Stride for 30 years, and still am, so I really don’t see how I can be accused of being ‘blinkered?’ (Yes, I realise that your comment was in direct response to Fishy [who doesn’t think that Stride was a ripper victim btw] but, from experience, I’ll assume that it included me because it usually does.)

A women who engaged in prostitution is murdered by having her throat cut outdoors during a period of murders of the same class of women within a very limited area and over a short period of time and on a night that we know for a fact that the ripper was active 15 minutes walk away. And we have a perfectly plausible, if unproven, possible reason for the lack of mutilations. This would have alarm bells ringing for any remotely functional Police force.

The location gives me doubt though unless her murder was killed as a result of the scenario that I mentioned in an earlier post. And I do have an issue with BS man being her killer after being seen by two people at close hand ‘assaulting’ Stride in the street. It’s not impossible that someone other than BS man killed her of course but it would have left a short 10 minutes or so window of opportunity.

So I don’t see how someone who is undecided on whether Stride was a victim or not can be described as ‘blinkered?’

Just to be fair ,i did mention that to Trevor in my post 99#.

[FISHY1118]

Hi Trevor,

I agree with your supposition that the confrontation between BSMan and Stride had all the hallmarks of a domestic, with Kidney in the role of BSman. The attempt to pull her into the street and the fact that her protests were not loud indicate to me that Stride was dealing with someone she knew. I also agree that JtR would not have planned a murder in that location and with that set of circumstances, which included two witnesses. However, I don't dismiss JtR being involved as an opportunist following on from witnessing the start of a crime which could be attributed to someone else.

My reservation with Kidney as being BSMan is :
1. Does his description match Schwartz's description of BSMan?
2. Would not the police have had Schwartz take a look at Kidney?

Even if we could persuade ourselves that Kidney was BSMan, it does not necessarily follow that he killed Stride. My opinion is that Stride knew BSMan, and she pulled away from his attempt to pull her out of the yard, overbalanced and fell down. I think she then got up, without feeling threatened, and thoroughly admonished him, after which he departed. What happened after that is anyone's guess.

Cheer, George

Hi George , I think one has to eliminate Kidney from being B.S. and Strides killer .


. [Coroner] You had a quarrel with her on Thursday? - I did not see her on Thursday.



[Coroner] When did you last see her? - ''On the Tuesday, and I then left her on friendly terms in Commercial- street''. That was between nine and ten o'clock at night, as I was coming from work.


[Coroner] Did you expect her home? - I expected her home half an hour afterwards. I subsequently ascertained that she had been in and had gone out again, ''and I did not see her again alive.''


It just seems a bit strange that under oath he would claim this, if all that took place was just a slight domestic with the Mrs .



If he did lie , then surely Schwartz description to the police and his eyewitness account of the event would have caught his lie out, dont you think ?

Chances of Kidney being ''B.S man '' Id say in the ''Extremely very unlikly'' basket .

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Trevor,

I agree with your supposition that the confrontation between BSMan and Stride had all the hallmarks of a domestic, with Kidney in the role of BSman. The attempt to pull her into the street and the fact that her protests were not loud indicate to me that Stride was dealing with someone she knew. I also agree that JtR would not have planned a murder in that location and with that set of circumstances, which included two witnesses. However, I don't dismiss JtR being involved as an opportunist following on from witnessing the start of a crime which could be attributed to someone else.

My reservation with Kidney as being BSMan is :
1. Does his description match Schwartz's description of BSMan?
2. Would not the police have had Schwartz take a look at Kidney?

Even if we could persuade ourselves that Kidney was BSMan, it does not necessarily follow that he killed Stride. My opinion is that Stride knew BSMan, and she pulled away from his attempt to pull her out of the yard, overbalanced and fell down. I think she then got up, without feeling threatened, and thoroughly admonished him, after which he departed. What happened after that is anyone's guess.

Cheer, George

Good points George. Although the window of opportunity was fairly tight post BS man it’s certainly possibly that someone else killed Stride. As you say, a description of Kidney would have been helpful.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Stride was not killed by JTR in my opinion based on the MO of the killer in this murder, and I am sure the reply will be that killers do change their MO which is very true but not as significant as in the case of Stride, everything abour her murder is so differenet from the rest and if you take the blinkers off you will see this.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Significant differences = no mutilations.

You keep posting as if the killer was consulting some kind of serial killers handbook as he was doing what he did Trevor and so any minor deviation from ‘the plan’ meant that it wasn’t him.

Ive been undecided on Stride for 30 years, and still am, so I really don’t see how I can be accused of being ‘blinkered?’ (Yes, I realise that your comment was in direct response to Fishy [who doesn’t think that Stride was a ripper victim btw] but, from experience, I’ll assume that it included me because it usually does.)

A women who engaged in prostitution is murdered by having her throat cut outdoors during a period of murders of the same class of women within a very limited area and over a short period of time and on a night that we know for a fact that the ripper was active 15 minutes walk away. And we have a perfectly plausible, if unproven, possible reason for the lack of mutilations. This would have alarm bells ringing for any remotely functional Police force.

The location gives me doubt though unless her murder was killed as a result of the scenario that I mentioned in an earlier post. And I do have an issue with BS man being her killer after being seen by two people at close hand ‘assaulting’ Stride in the street. It’s not impossible that someone other than BS man killed her of course but it would have left a short 10 minutes or so window of opportunity.

So I don’t see how someone who is undecided on whether Stride was a victim or not can be described as ‘blinkered?’

[GBinOz]

I think researchers have become blinkered in their approach to this murder, as were the police in 1888 by linking this murder to the rest when there are signifiant differnces which were clearly evident back then, and still are today and ignoring the most likely suspect for Strides murder that being Michael Kidney her boyfriend/partner.

I can find no record of Kidney accounting for his movements at the time of her murder.

Stride was seen arguing with a man shortly before her murder that man has never been identified so that arugment has all the hallmarks of a domestic argument and I dont believe for one minute that JTR would get involved in a street incident with a potential victim especially at that time of the night outside a club when the public were still about. That man could have been Kidney or simply a potential punter who she accosted who wanted nothing to do with her

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Hi Trevor,

I agree with your supposition that the confrontation between BSMan and Stride had all the hallmarks of a domestic, with Kidney in the role of BSman. The attempt to pull her into the street and the fact that her protests were not loud indicate to me that Stride was dealing with someone she knew. I also agree that JtR would not have planned a murder in that location and with that set of circumstances, which included two witnesses. However, I don't dismiss JtR being involved as an opportunist following on from witnessing the start of a crime which could be attributed to someone else.

My reservation with Kidney as being BSMan is :
1. Does his description match Schwartz's description of BSMan?
2. Would not the police have had Schwartz take a look at Kidney?

Even if we could persuade ourselves that Kidney was BSMan, it does not necessarily follow that he killed Stride. My opinion is that Stride knew BSMan, and she pulled away from his attempt to pull her out of the yard, overbalanced and fell down. I think she then got up, without feeling threatened, and thoroughly admonished him, after which he departed. What happened after that is anyone's guess.

Cheer, George

[Herlock Sholmes]

You should know by now that It is wrong to assume anything in Ripperology

There is no record of him giving an alibi or him ever being formally interviewed and being eliminated. and even if he was interviewed he could have easily said he was in his room asleep !!!!!!!!!!!!

As I said previous if her murder had been a one off then no doubt Kidney would have been the first person they arrested given their torrid relationship and him having a propensity of violence towards her, but the police were faced with two murders the same night which they at the time and in my opinion wrongly linked both to the previous murders and JTR.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

The Police spoke to Kelly after the Eddowes murder, Edward Stanley after the Stride murder and Barnett after the Kelly murder. Why should we assume that they were so incompetent that they didn’t check Kidney fully? We can’t prove that they did but equally we can’t prove that they didn’t but we surely have to favour the former as being the likelier? How could they have known for example that Kidney wasn’t the ripper? They were under extreme pressure to catch this man of course.

Of course he could have given a false alibi which might have fooled the Police but as we have no records should we just assume that they didn’t stand him in front of Schwartz? Or Smith?

[FISHY1118]

The police had the power to arrest on suspicion.

We do not know if Kidney was interviewed, there is no evidence in his inquest testimony as to where he was as the time of the murder and nothing in any police record. You cannot assume that he was interviewed conversely as you say he might have been.

Over the years there are many recorded cases where the police have failed in their duties in major cases which has led to wrongful arrest, and miscarriages of justice.

Because of the murder of Eddowes a short time after the murder of Stride I am of the opinion that the police wrongly believed that both murders were committed by the killer known as JTR, so they focused all their attentions in that direction. They should have identified the significant MO between Strides murder and the others and investigated her murder as a potential domestic murder.

Kidney`s inquest testimony was in conflict with other witnesses

I think the only use of the silly bin is for you and others who take this blinkered approach to this murder and are not prepared to think outside the box. Stride was not killed by JTR in my opinion based on the MO of the killer in this murder, and I am sure the reply will be that killers do change their MO which is very true but not as significant as in the case of Stride, everything abour her murder is so differenet from the rest and if you take the blinkers off you will see this.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

For what its worth i dont think stride was a Ripper victim either , for the reasons ive decribed already . But to even suggest that Kidney was her killer based on nothing at all really is ridiculous, and you know its nothing . So lets not go into all the details as to why. So its still the ''Silly Bin'' for Kidney .




''The police had the power to arrest on suspicion''.

Again, when was Kidney ever arrested for the suspicion of murdering Elizabeth Stride . ?

Lechmere , Hutchinson, Paul , Schwartz, should they have all been arrested too ?

Show me a witness or somebody who actually testified at the inquest that the police on suspicion arrested for any of the ripper murders.? Then you might just have something worth talking about, otherwise move on .

[Trevor Marriott]

For the police to Arrest Kidney for Strides murder , they would have to have had a damm good reason to do so As he was never arrested for her crime what does that tell us ? . Lets leave kidney out of this mess [for obvious reasons] for goodness sake. Its just a another redherring that people like to make up thats surrounded by speculation , conjecture and circumstances, just to make a point. Which ultimately leads nowhere to finding the killer which is never suprizing .

This is surely to be put in the Eagle and Lave and now Kidney ''Silly bin'' as Strides killer . Move on ,nothing to see here .

The police had the power to arrest on suspicion.

We do not know if Kidney was interviewed, there is no evidence in his inquest testimony as to where he was as the time of the murder and nothing in any police record. You cannot assume that he was interviewed conversely as you say he might have been.

Over the years there are many recorded cases where the police have failed in their duties in major cases which has led to wrongful arrest, and miscarriages of justice.

Because of the murder of Eddowes a short time after the murder of Stride I am of the opinion that the police wrongly believed that both murders were committed by the killer known as JTR, so they focused all their attentions in that direction. They should have identified the significant MO between Strides murder and the others and investigated her murder as a potential domestic murder.

Kidney`s inquest testimony was in conflict with other witnesses

I think the only use of the silly bin is for you and others who take this blinkered approach to this murder and are not prepared to think outside the box. Stride was not killed by JTR in my opinion based on the MO of the killer in this murder, and I am sure the reply will be that killers do change their MO which is very true but not as significant as in the case of Stride, everything abour her murder is so differenet from the rest and if you take the blinkers off you will see this.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk