Why No Stride Mutilations ?

[FISHY1118]

Hi Tristan,

I agree. There is no evidence from Schwartz that he followed him anymore than a couple of steps. He reached the arches before he looked around and Pipeman wasn't there. I also agree with your shining knight theory.

Cheers, George

How far were the arch was Schwartz from where he was standing when he saw the incident?

[Losmandris]

Hi Tristan,

I agree. There is no evidence from Schwartz that he followed him anymore than a couple of steps. He reached the arches before he looked around and Pipeman wasn't there. I also agree with your shining knight theory.

Cheers, George

Just from the position of Stride in yard and the fact that she was still holding those cachous, (either in the process of taking one herself, possibly before attempting to kiss her killer or of offering him one) eliminates BS man for me at least. I know its tight on timings but someone else must have made an appearance on the scene. Again for me pipe man is the obvious choice here. Questioning the timing by Herlock Sholmes has made this very interesting for me and something I have never thought about. If the BS man incident happened just 10 minutes early this really opens the door for another person, not only to make an appearance but to ingratiate himself a little bit with Stride before killing her. Very interesting indeed.

[FISHY1118]

Just from the position of Stride in yard and the fact that she was still holding those cachous, (either in the process of taking one herself, possibly before attempting to kiss her killer or of offering him one) eliminates BS man for me at least. I know its tight on timings but someone else must have made an appearance on the scene. Again for me pipe man is the obvious choice here. Questioning the timing by Herlock Sholmes has made this very interesting for me and something I have never thought about. If the BS man incident happened just 10 minutes early this really opens the door for another person, not only to make an appearance but to ingratiate himself a little bit with Stride before killing her. Very interesting indeed.

Why would Stride still holding her cachous eliminate B.S man ? There could be many reasons why she still had them in her hand, all of which still wouldnt eliminate b.s on that fact alone..

As for herlocks [lets just move times around here and there willy nilly] suggestion ,as ive already explained if we move one time to fit a perticular theory we have to move another . Ill explain .

If the Schwartz incident gets moved back to 12.30am as some posters like to use to get Pipeman in the frame as Strides murderer, then we have to somehow assume that Morris Eagles time when he said this is wrong/mistaken , as would then Diemschutz ,and Dr Blackwells


Morris Eagle ''After the discussion, between half-past eleven and a quarter to twelve o'clock, I left the club to take my young lady home, going out through the front door. I returned about ''twenty minutes to one''. I tried the front door, but, finding it closed, I went through the gateway into the yard, reaching the club in that way''.

Ive give you one guess who would have found Strides body at 12.41am .



Moving times is dangerous, not saying that there set in stone in every case. Only when they set off a chain reaction like this example to try and pin Strides murder on Pipeman. Who by the way left the scene right after the attack on Stride, along with Schwartz and .B.S man, its just speculation and conjecture to suggest he returned to kill Stride. He could have just as easily gone home .

[Losmandris]

Why would Stride still holding her cachous eliminate B.S man ? There could be many reasons why she still had them in her hand, all of which still wouldnt eliminate b.s on that fact alone..

As for herlocks [lets just move times around here and there willy nilly] suggestion ,as ive already explained if we move one time to fit a perticular theory we have to move another . Ill explain .

If the Schwartz incident gets moved back to 12.30am as some posters like to use to get Pipeman in the frame as Strides murderer, then we have to somehow assume that Morris Eagles time when he said this is wrong/mistaken , as would then Diemschutz ,and Dr Blackwells


Morris Eagle ''After the discussion, between half-past eleven and a quarter to twelve o'clock, I left the club to take my young lady home, going out through the front door. I returned about ''twenty minutes to one''. I tried the front door, but, finding it closed, I went through the gateway into the yard, reaching the club in that way''.

Ive give you one guess who would have found Strides body at 12.41am .



Moving times is dangerous, not saying that there set in stone in every case. Only when they set off a chain reaction like this example to try and pin Strides murder on Pipeman. Who by the way left the scene right after the attack on Stride, along with Schwartz and .B.S man, its just speculation and conjecture to suggest he returned to kill Stride. He could have just as easily gone home .

Fair points. So the whole Schwartz episode must have happened after Eagle re-entered the club?

[FISHY1118]

Fair points. So the whole Schwartz episode must have happened after Eagle re-entered the club?

Correct, stride was killed after eagle went back inside the club.

[GBinOz]

Morris Eagle ''After the discussion, between half-past eleven and a quarter to twelve o'clock, I left the club to take my young lady home, going out through the front door. I returned about ''twenty minutes to one''. I tried the front door, but, finding it closed, I went through the gateway into the yard, reaching the club in that way''.

Ive give you one guess who would have found Strides body at 12.41am .

Fishy, how did Eagle know what time it was? He said at the inquest that he didn't look at the clock in the club, but calculated his times from when he left home to go to the club and then take his girlfriend home and return. In other words he was guessing and could have been out by ten, or even twenty minutes. You need to adjust your thinking out of the computer age back to an era when time was determined by guessing how many minutes had passed since you last saw the unsynchronised clock in a bell tower. To his credit, Herlock has come to appreciate this factor and has adjusted his thinking accordingly.

Cheers, George

[Losmandris]

Fishy, how did Eagle know what time it was? He said at the inquest that he didn't look at the clock in the club, but calculated his times from when he left home to go to the club and then take his girlfriend home and return. In other words he was guessing and could have been out by ten, or even twenty minutes. You need to adjust your thinking out of the computer age back to an era when time was determined by guessing how many minutes had passed since you last saw the unsynchronised clock in a bell tower. To his credit, Herlock has come to appreciate this factor and has adjusted his thinking accordingly.

Cheers, George

Ok. So that makes it even more interesting still. I have to say I certainly read the statement FISHY1118 shared with my 21st century hat on, taking the timings as precise but of course that is not necessarily the case. Of course an extra 10 minutes is not crucial for someone else to appear on the scene after the BS incident but it certainly helps.

[FISHY1118]

Fishy, how did Eagle know what time it was? He said at the inquest that he didn't look at the clock in the club, but calculated his times from when he left home to go to the club and then take his girlfriend home and return. In other words he was guessing and could have been out by ten, or even twenty minutes. You need to adjust your thinking out of the computer age back to an era when time was determined by guessing how many minutes had passed since you last saw the unsynchronised clock in a bell tower. To his credit, Herlock has come to appreciate this factor and has adjusted his thinking accordingly.

Cheers, George

His clock at home when he left to come back to the club , the clock inside the workers club when he walked through the door at 12.41am , he may even asked a member for the time on his arrival back at the club , all very plausable. And more than likely that eagle new what time it was. To suggest he was 10/ 15 mins out because back in 1888 somehow all people had access to was an unsynchonised bell tower clock!! , is just silly in my opinion. The adjustment in thinking need to be given to people back in 1888 that they werent idiots when knowing what time it was .

''He said at the inquest that he didn't look at the clock in the club''

i dont see this at his inquest george .


Lets say we put eagle back to 12.30 what then does that do with all the other times stated from all the witnesses where stride is concerned .?

[GBinOz]

Ok. So that makes it even more interesting still. I have to say I certainly read the statement FISHY1118 shared with my 21st century hat on, taking the timings as precise but of course that is not necessarily the case. Of course an extra 10 minutes is not crucial for someone else to appear on the scene after the BS incident but it certainly helps.

Hi Tristan,

I would suggest you read post #2 here:

https://www.jtrforums.com/forum/the-crime-scenes/8950-a-matter-of-timing-berner-street-witness-time#post120389

Chris McKay is an authority on historical timekeeping, and his dissertation puts JtR times into perspective.

Cheers, George

[GBinOz]

His clock at home when he left to come back to the club , the clock inside the workers club when he walked through the door at 12.41am , he may even asked a member for the time on his arrival back at the club , all very plausable. And more than likely that eagle new what time it was. To suggest he was 10/ 15 mins out because back in 1888 somehow all people had access to was an unsynchonised bell tower clock!! , is just silly in my opinion. The adjustment in thinking need to be given to people back in 1888 that they werent idiots when knowing what time it was .

''He said at the inquest that he didn't look at the clock in the club''

i dont see this at his inquest george .


Lets say we put eagle back to 12.30 what then does that do with all the other times stated from all the witnesses where stride is concerned .?

It is your prerogative to consider historical facts "silly". That doesn't alter their validity as facts. Non of your "plausibles" are plausible because he told the coroner they didn't happen.

Unfortunately we don't have the original inquest transcripts and are dependant on the individual press reports of the proceedings, which vary considerably. You are probably looking at the Daily Telegraph report which is quoted on casebook. I think it is in the Times report that says he didn't look at the clock, and in another report (can't recall which newspaper at the moment) the coroner asks him how he determined time and he answered as I detailed above. You should note that he didn't return to his home (and look at his clock) before or after dropping off his girlfriend.

All the times quoted were based on different clock syncs, except the one's that were guessed which included estimate errors with the original sync errors. Read the dissertation I linked for Tristan, and work with the facts. Sequences are better than clock times.

[FISHY1118]

It is your prerogative to consider historical facts "silly". That doesn't alter their validity as facts. Non of your "plausibles" are plausible because he told the coroner they didn't happen.

Unfortunately we don't have the original inquest transcripts and are dependant on the individual press reports of the proceedings, which vary considerably. You are probably looking at the Daily Telegraph report which is quoted on casebook. I think it is in the Times report that says he didn't look at the clock, and in another report (can't recall which newspaper at the moment) the coroner asks him how he determined time and he answered as I detailed above. You should note that he didn't return to his home (and look at his clock) before or after dropping off his girlfriend.

Is it a historical fact the every clock in whitechapel was out by 10/15 mins or just the ones we want to be out .? That would be silly wouldnt it ?

SO it comes down to which report one chooses to use , bit like Richardson /Inspecter Chandler at 29 hanbury st ,did he sit on the step and cut the leather from his boot or didnt he ,you tell me ?

[Losmandris]

Hi Tristan,

I would suggest you read post #2 here:
https://www.jtrforums.com/forum/the-...ime#post120389

Chris McKay is an authority on historical timekeeping, and his dissertation puts JtR times into perspective.

Cheers, George

I shall! Thanks George.

[Herlock Sholmes]

We can’t tie times down to exact times. This is a fact that is beyond argument. I really can’t understand the resistance to the blindingly obvious?

[Harry D]

Just from the position of Stride in yard and the fact that she was still holding those cachous, (either in the process of taking one herself, possibly before attempting to kiss her killer or of offering him one) eliminates BS man for me at least. I know its tight on timings but someone else must have made an appearance on the scene. Again for me pipe man is the obvious choice here. Questioning the timing by Herlock Sholmes has made this very interesting for me and something I have never thought about. If the BS man incident happened just 10 minutes early this really opens the door for another person, not only to make an appearance but to ingratiate himself a little bit with Stride before killing her. Very interesting indeed.

I've seen several theories posited to reconcile Schwarz's account, and they're all problematic imo.

Pipeman as the good samaritan conveniently popping up to kill Stride, or BS Man sneaking behind Stride in the yard. None of them wash with me.

The cachous and lack of a struggle indicate that Stride's guard was down when she was killed. Slipping off into the privacy of the yard with a lover/punter dovetails perfectly with the forensic evidence. A relaxed Stride going into the yard with her assailant or a rando after being roughed up, frankly doesn't.

[Sunny Delight]

I've seen several theories posited to reconcile Schwarz's account, and they're all problematic imo.

Pipeman as the good samaritan conveniently popping up to kill Stride, or BS Man sneaking behind Stride in the yard. None of them wash with me.

The cachous and lack of a struggle indicate that Stride's guard was down when she was killed. Slipping off into the privacy of the yard with a lover/punter dovetails perfectly with the forensic evidence. A relaxed Stride going into the yard with her assailant or a rando after being roughed up, frankly doesn't.

I think it more likely B.S man attacks Stride almost immediately after Schwartz and Pipeman run off. Stride may have managed to keep hold of the Cachous during the assault witnessed by Schwartz. According to Schwartz B.S man turned Stride around and threw her to the ground. With her back to him he immediately reaches for the scarf and pulls it tight. Stride has little time to think or compose herself before the attack. It is so sudden she freezes and loses consciousness fairly quickly.

B.S man spooked by the Schwartz and Pipeman incident has second thoughts about mutilating the body. They could be returning with a Policeman for all he knew. That would spook him into thinking better of it rather than have a Policeman happen onto the scene. Just a thought for possible scenario. The killer escapes up Berner Street, composes himself and then sets off for Whitechapel Road probably intentionally crossing into City Police territory- he was likely expecting considerable Police panic within Whitechapel. Then he meets and kills Eddowes.