Why No Stride Mutilations ?

[Sunny Delight]

Makes sense to me Wick. And then we can factor in a bit of leeway due to timing estimates. I have to admit that I’ve always pretty much accepted that Lawende and co must have seen Kate and her killer but how much weight should we put on vague descriptions given in the gloom by three guys looking to get home (perhaps after a beer or three?) I’m usually pretty slow to change my mind but I have to say that it makes total sense that Lawende and co just saw two people unconnected to the case (who were chatting away while Kate was being killed just a few yards away)

It is very difficult to see how the couple seen was not Eddowes and JTR. In fact at the inquest it was stated the killer needed at least five minutes to perform the murder and mutilations. The timeline works for Lawende's suspect but more importantly it also ties in with why he took the piece of apron. Disturbed by PC Harvey's footsteps he cuts a piece of apron away to clean his knife when he gets a chance. It so happens that he got that chance on Goulston Street.

[Herlock Sholmes]

It is very difficult to see how the couple seen was not Eddowes and JTR. In fact at the inquest it was stated the killer needed at least five minutes to perform the murder and mutilations. The timeline works for Lawende's suspect but more importantly it also ties in with why he took the piece of apron. Disturbed by PC Harvey's footsteps he cuts a piece of apron away to clean his knife when he gets a chance. It so happens that he got that chance on Goulston Street.

I’m certainly not saying that it couldn’t have been them SD but it seems to me that there has to have been a possibility that it wasn’t. On the apron, I tend toward thinking that he took it so that he could check himself over away from Mitre Square and then remove any obvious signs of blood. But I agree that he could have fled after hearing a PC’s footsteps.

I know that we shouldn’t really indulge in the game of ‘if I was the ripper I would have…’ but I’ve often thought about the risk of getting blood on clothing. For me it would have been a full length coat. Kill by strangulation, take off the coat to mutilate, put the coat back on covering at least the majority of blood.

[Sunny Delight]

I’m certainly not saying that it couldn’t have been them SD but it seems to me that there has to have been a possibility that it wasn’t. On the apron, I tend toward thinking that he took it so that he could check himself over away from Mitre Square and then remove any obvious signs of blood. But I agree that he could have fled after hearing a PC’s footsteps.

I know that we shouldn’t really indulge in the game of ‘if I was the ripper I would have…’ but I’ve often thought about the risk of getting blood on clothing. For me it would have been a full length coat. Kill by strangulation, take off the coat to mutilate, put the coat back on covering at least the majority of blood.

Of course there is always that possibility. But for me it is a very slim possibility. As I say the timeline works and we can also explain why the portion of apron was taken if Lawende saw Eddowes. PC Harvey spooks the Ripper into leaving the scene asap. We will never be 100% sure he did but it is much more likely than unlikely to my mind. In regards blood spatter the Ripper knew to turn the head before cutting the throat and all the doctors agreed that he likely did not have much blood on his person. So taking off the coat would have been a fairly pointless exercise.

[Mark J D]

Regardless of whether Jack was BS man or not, I just think that the location of Berner St was a riskier proposition than that of Mitre Square.

He would have been aware that any of the club members could pop outside at any moment.

Perhaps a noise from inside the club spooked him and he thought better of getting down to the mutilations.

Pure speculation of course, but that's really all we can do!

If we plug Lechmere into the situation, it all becomes even riskier: as opposed to the c.3:45am murders in quiet places he hadn't been walking through until recently, he's now killing at c.12:45am in an area where, in addition to there being more people about at the fag-end of a Saturday night, there are folks who've known him and his family for yonks. It's one thing to bury your bloodied hands and your oozing trophy in your work-coat pockets and carry on walking to Broad Street as unobtrusively as possible; it's quite another to risk having a former neighbour unexpectedly slap you on the back and expect to be able to shake your hand... "Hey, Charles! Haven't seen you for a while! Popped back to your old local for a drink, have you? Put it there, pal! Eeeeew, yuk..."

M.

[Trevor Marriott]

It is very difficult to see how the couple seen was not Eddowes and JTR. In fact at the inquest it was stated the killer needed at least five minutes to perform the murder and mutilations. The timeline works for Lawende's suspect but more importantly it also ties in with why he took the piece of apron. Disturbed by PC Harvey's footsteps he cuts a piece of apron away to clean his knife when he gets a chance. It so happens that he got that chance on Goulston Street.

Put yourself in the shoes of the killer if you were committng a murder and you saw a police man coming down the passage towards you would you stop and cut a piece of apron not on your life you would want to escape as quick as possible maybe even leaving the knife behind

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Trevor Marriott]

I’m certainly not saying that it couldn’t have been them SD but it seems to me that there has to have been a possibility that it wasn’t. On the apron, I tend toward thinking that he took it so that he could check himself over away from Mitre Square and then remove any obvious signs of blood. But I agree that he could have fled after hearing a PC’s footsteps.

I know that we shouldn’t really indulge in the game of ‘if I was the ripper I would have…’ but I’ve often thought about the risk of getting blood on clothing. For me it would have been a full length coat. Kill by strangulation, take off the coat to mutilate, put the coat back on covering at least the majority of blood.

and then he did a rendition of the highland fling before leaving

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Herlock Sholmes]

and then he did a rendition of the highland fling before leaving

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Of course, wearing a coat is such a ludicrous idea…..as if people wear coats!! And then…….taking it off!! How preposterous…..why would he have wasted the 3 seconds that it would have taken?!! And then to top it all off…….he puts the coat back on!!!! The very thought!!

Who’d have possibly considered of such a complex piece of subterfuge. Such fiendishness!

You come up with the most far-fetched, provably wrong twaddle about the apron and then pour scorn on the suggestion that the killer might have taken a coat off then put it back on!!! A more perfect example of Ripperological bizarreness I can hardly imagine.

[Sunny Delight]

Put yourself in the shoes of the killer if you were committng a murder and you saw a police man coming down the passage towards you would you stop and cut a piece of apron not on your life you would want to escape as quick as possible maybe even leaving the knife behind

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Who knows how you would react in such a state of panic? The most likely thing is if he often cleaned the knife on clothing before he left the scene then to cut a piece of apron for the same purpose when he got a chance.

[Trevor Marriott]

Who knows how you would react in such a state of panic? The most likely thing is if he often cleaned the knife on clothing before he left the scene then to cut a piece of apron for the same purpose when he got a chance.

If he needed to escape quickly I doubt the knife cleaning would have been his main concern, every second he wasted would have been a second towards his detection and cutting a piece of apron before escaping is unthinkable with a police office bearing down on him, because he was not to know that Harvey would not come into the square

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Trevor Marriott]

Of course, wearing a coat is such a ludicrous idea…..as if people wear coats!! And then…….taking it off!! How preposterous…..why would he have wasted the 3 seconds that it would have taken?!! And then to top it all off…….he puts the coat back on!!!! The very thought!!

Who’d have possibly considered of such a complex piece of subterfuge. Such fiendishness!

You come up with the most far-fetched, provably wrong twaddle about the apron and then pour scorn on the suggestion that the killer might have taken a coat off then put it back on!!! A more perfect example of Ripperological bizarreness I can hardly imagine.

No your coat suggestion is the most bizarre can you imagine the killer saying to the victim "Hold on a minute i am going to take my coat off before I murder you so as i dont get blood on it" or the thought of the killer after murdering her taking his coat off to perform the mutilations and organ removals before putting it back on as Pc Harvey gets closer

what planet are you on?

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Sunny Delight]

If he needed to escape quickly I doubt the knife cleaning would have been his main concern, every second he wasted would have been a second towards his detection and cutting a piece of apron before escaping is unthinkable with a police office bearing down on him, because he was not to know that Harvey would not come into the square

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Well he evidently according to the Doctors did just that. He used the apron to clean his knife according to those who saw the piece. The timeline works and there is nothing contradictory. For instance if the Doctors had said the mutilations had to have taken at least ten minutes then the couple Lawende saw would likely not be Eddowes and JTR. But they didn't they said at least five. If Lawende had seen the couple at 1:40am they evidently would not have been Eddowes and JTR. But he didn't. He and his companions estimated probably 1:33am- 1:35am.

And so we have the Ripper in the Square at approx 1:35am- 1:36am with a murder and mutilations taking at least five minutes. PC Harvey comes down Church Passage and it is his footsteps- not the sight of him that prompts the Ripper to cut away a piece of apron and flee. Of course cleaning the knife was of upmost importance as being found in possession of a bloodied knife so close to the crime scene would have seen one arrested no doubt. And so once he flees and wipes the knife cleaning he discards the apron. PC Halse and PC Long don't see it at 1:55am. Why would they? Halse even admitted he need not have seen it. Long disagreed but subsequent events show him not to be the most reliable.

[Herlock Sholmes]

No your coat suggestion is the most bizarre can you imagine the killer saying to the victim "Hold on a minute i am going to take my coat off before I murder you so as i dont get blood on it" or the thought of the killer after murdering her taking his coat off to perform the mutilations and organ removals before putting it back on as Pc Harvey gets closer

what planet are you on?

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Ever heard of strangulation Trevor? Strangle first - then coat off - then mutilate - then coat back on. I’m on earth, you should try visiting it someday?

[Wickerman]

Thanks Wick. I thought I recalled it being questioned whether he’d actually gone to the end of the passage or not. He claims to have done just that of course but there has to be a chance that he didn’t bother.

I just wondered how it’s known that it wasn’t his responsibility to check Mitre Square as he appears to claim that it was?

Sorry, I meant Mitre Sq. was not on Harvey's beat, so it wasn't his responsibility to check the square.

Agreed, he does claim to have walked to the end of the passage, and I have no reason to doubt he did.
He says he stood there for a minute or so, but it is unlikely he could see across the square with a gaslight over his head, it kind of limits your vision when you stand in a halo of light.
Neil once suggested it was the beat constable's duty to check the function of municipal gas lamps, so he was of the opinion PC Harvey likely did go to the end of the passage where the lamp was.

[Sunny Delight]

Something that piqued my interest also was this. Eddowes was arrested earlier the previous evening and taken to the station. Here is a very interesting answer to a question posed by a juror to Constable George Hutt:

Juror: Do you search persons who are brought in for drunkenness? - No, but we take from them anything that might be dangerous. I loosened the things round the deceased's neck, and I then saw a white wrapper and a red silk handkerchief.

Joseph Lawende's description of the man with Eddowes mentions him wearing a red handkerchief tied in a knot. It may be speculative but is there a possibility the red handkerchief was say John Kelly's and Eddowes used it to flirt with her client. She gives him the handkerchief saying it would look good on him then she continues to flirt with her hand on the man's chest. They then go towards Mitre Square. The Ripper leaves the handkerchief behind and it is listed in Eddowes possessions. It as I say is speculative but maybe something worth exploring.

[JeffHamm]

It is very difficult to see how the couple seen was not Eddowes and JTR. In fact at the inquest it was stated the killer needed at least five minutes to perform the murder and mutilations. The timeline works for Lawende's suspect but more importantly it also ties in with why he took the piece of apron. Disturbed by PC Harvey's footsteps he cuts a piece of apron away to clean his knife when he gets a chance. It so happens that he got that chance on Goulston Street.

Hi SD,

There's a few statements worth considering. The first is that Lawende and co. leave at sometime around 1:33-1:35 (Leve states they waited 3-4 minutes after 1:30 and Lawende states 5, so their departure is 1:33-1:35). And that departure was based upon a heavy rain stopping. So, even if the Church Passage Couple wasn't Eddowes and JtR, it seems unlikely that JtR would be attacking Eddowes in Mitre Square until after the rain as well (probably sheltering). Also, Dr. Sequeria (sp?) estimated 3 minutes for the murder and mutilations, so again, we have a range of estimations to work with (and some modern medical opinions have been as short as 2, but that seems awfully quick).

Anyway, my point is, that even if the CPC isn't Eddowes and JtR I think the times we have still suggest the same timeline, only that one has to work out where Eddowes and JtR enter the square from. There's two other entries, so it's possible, and the one to St. James was covered (offered shelter). But of course, what we don't have is any sighting of a couple for the other entries. There's Blenkinsop who says he saw people about in St. James, but he doesn't say he saw a couple specifically.

So, while I think the CPC are the odds on favorite for Eddowes and JtR, I think we have to seriously consider other options. In my view, even if we do that, not too much changes.

- Jeff