6d. Did Liz spend it, or die for it?

[Cogidubnus]

Hello Jon. Thanks.

"She was certainly planning on being absent from the lodging house on Sat night."

Can't disagree there. I wonder if she'd go to all that trouble for a single night away?

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn

Quite...

All the best

Dave

[Jon Guy]

Hi Pat

Deimshulz's wife would have wanted a hand clearing up after the people had all gone home I would have thought. Lots of glasses to wash and ashtrays to empty? Not to mention the floor.

I believe the Diemschutz`s had their own servant who was present that night. Can`t remember her name, Mila or something like that.

[Abby Normal]

The authorities did consider the seaman, the drover, those who left London for a week or two at a time. I can't think of anything else that would keep a man away during the middle of the month, which is why I'm inclined towards a periodic trigger, and any number of failed attempts.

Hi Wick
Thanks-Nice!I like the seaman idea. It would also explain the sailors cap.
Im wondering if it could also explain Ada wilsons sun burnt man and Blotchys appearance.

Dont sailors get alot of sun?

[Abby Normal]

Maybe when his wife was PMSing, and then when she was actually menstruating.

No, I didn't really say that.

I could have been any stressor. I could have been when the rent was due, he didn't have the money to pay it, and was seriously stressed about it, and then again when he finally paid it, and had a confrontation with the landlord about how it couldn't be late again, and he was decompressing. Maybe his supervisor at work did periodic inspections, and because of the way the trains ran, he went back and forth, so they were twice a month, not at regular intervals, rather the second and last week of the month.

Anything, almost, could be at odd intervals. We have a small sample. When I was a teenager, and I got migraines, I got one about every five weeks, but I might get one, and get one the next week, or go two months without. If he was subject to some kind of homicidal attack that came about every two weeks, and we have a small sample, we might have a couple of one week intervals, and a couple of three week intervals.

There are all kinds of reasons for the attacks happening on weekends, but suffice to say that for nearly everyone, weekends are different from the rest of the week. We even have the word "weekend."

Hi RC
Great ideas!

[Wickerman]

Hi Wick
Thanks-Nice!I like the seaman idea. It would also explain the sailors cap.
Im wondering if it could also explain Ada wilsons sun burnt man and Blotchys appearance.

Dont sailors get alot of sun?

Typically, yes, if they sail where it is hot. If 'Jack' sailed the Mediterranean, he'd be gone for longer, wouldn't he?
I'm surprised we don't read more about this seemingly important line of inquiry.

"It appears that the cattle boats bringing live freight to London are in the habit of coming into the Thames on Thursdays or Fridays, and leave again for the Continent on Sundays or Mondays. It has already been a matter of comment that the recent revolting crimes have been committed at the week's end, and an opinion has been formed among some of the detectives that the murderer is a drover or butcher employed on one of these boats - of which there are many - and that he periodically appears and disappears with one of the steamers. This theory is held to be of much importance by those involved in the investigation, who believe that the murderer does not reside either in the locality or even in this country at all. It is thought that he may be either a person employed upon one of these boats, or one who is allowed to travel by them, and inquiries have for some time been directed in following up the theory."

If the police truly were investigating this avenue then why don't we read more about it. I don't recall any of the top police officials theorizing about a sailor.

[RivkahChaya]

So if she's found a new protector, would she be emboldened to try again? In the light of which the flower could seriously be either her own purchase (to make herself more attractive), or an impulse gift from the mysterious suitor...who knows?

I can't argue with any of those ideas in theory, except that, hadn't Stride been staying at the doss house for a while?

I mean, I suppose Kidney might have been indifferent to her leaving, until he learned she was working for someone else, which while it may not have been exactly true, may have been what worked its way through the grapevine to him.

How did Kidney know she'd be where she was unless he followed her there, though? Even then, I'm not opposed to hearing out a theory where he just tried to talk her back into the fold, and they ended up arguing, but how often does that sort of fight end in a cut throat? Had Kidney ever killed anyone before? again, I'm not opposed to hearing arguments that he was a hitman, or some such thing, but it seems like spontaneous domestic arguments that turn murderous, between people who have never had fights that escalated that far before, usually end in death by stabbing, not a single throat cut.

That brings us back to the idea that he planned the murder, and I find that a little unconvincing. Of course, if he'd been fomenting the idea on and off that'd he'd be better rid of her, and then, there's a killer in the midst of Whitechapel, giving him a chance to put the blame on someone else, it looks more promising. If I were writing a novel, I might even have Kidney be the person who sent the "double event" postcard, when he finds out there has been another murder by the real Ripper, very close in time to his copycat, and he's worried the police won't believe one person could manage to do both in a short amount of time.

[Cogidubnus]

I can't argue with any of those ideas in theory, except that, hadn't Stride been staying at the doss house for a while?

I mean, I suppose Kidney might have been indifferent to her leaving, until he learned she was working for someone else, which while it may not have been exactly true, may have been what worked its way through the grapevine to him.

How did Kidney know she'd be where she was unless he followed her there, though? Even then, I'm not opposed to hearing out a theory where he just tried to talk her back into the fold, and they ended up arguing, but how often does that sort of fight end in a cut throat? Had Kidney ever killed anyone before? again, I'm not opposed to hearing arguments that he was a hitman, or some such thing, but it seems like spontaneous domestic arguments that turn murderous, between people who have never had fights that escalated that far before, usually end in death by stabbing, not a single throat cut.

That brings us back to the idea that he planned the murder, and I find that a little unconvincing. Of course, if he'd been fomenting the idea on and off that'd he'd be better rid of her, and then, there's a killer in the midst of Whitechapel, giving him a chance to put the blame on someone else, it looks more promising. If I were writing a novel, I might even have Kidney be the person who sent the "double event" postcard, when he finds out there has been another murder by the real Ripper, very close in time to his copycat, and he's worried the police won't believe one person could manage to do both in a short amount of time.

Hi Rivkah

Yes, at the inquest Kidney claimed (per The Times 4th October 1888) not to have seen Stride since "last Tuesday week". Elizabeth Tanner, (the lodging house deputy), however, claimed to have seen her at the lodging house only on Thursday and Friday mights...so there may well be a little further doubt over Kidney's veracity...

Speculatively, Kidney might've spotted Liz by chance and followed her...he may've been tipped off she accompanied somebody specific...or he may've been given chapter and verse by a confidante. Who can tell at this distance?

Like yourself, if it were so, I wouldn't claim this as a planned or premeditated murder...more an attack of rage followed by an impulse crime...and let not the cut throat stand in the way of this...it sometimes seems to me that half the bloody population (especially casual waterside labourers) regularly carried large clasp knives or other bladed instruments...

As I say, I try hard to keep an open mind, but the case representing Michael Kidney as "BS Man" isn't an altogether unreasonable one.

All the best

Dave

[RivkahChaya]

What do we know of Kidney's past? was he ever a butcher or slaughterer? did he ever live or work on a farm? did he ever hunt? Sometimes hunters become good at cutting animals' throats, if they aren't good at killing with one shot-- they'll fall the animal, but have to cut its throat to actually kill it.

It just seems that if he'd never done such a thing before, it wouldn't be something he'd pull off without a hesitation wound, defensive wounds, or her screaming. But if he even had experience butchering farm animals, then maybe it came more naturally than stabbing someone in the gut, or chest, which is what I'd expect an inexperienced killer to do (not that I'm a huge expert, but if my life depended on slitting someone's throat on the first try, I think I'd be a goner).

[Jon Guy]

I`m not knocking the Kidney angle but BS Man had a small brown moustache and Kidney had this baby:

[lynn cates]

off the list

Hello Jon. Just so. And one of many reasons NOT to include Kidney in the list of potential killers.

Cheers.
LC

[Cogidubnus]

Soupstrainer

Hi Jon

Well that's certainly something else to consider!

Cheers

Dave

[Michael W Richards]

Hello all,

Ive been reading what Ive missed and it still amazes me that many folks lump the knowns of all the women assigned to the "Ripper Series" together as irrelevant.. if they in any way deviate from the OPINION that these women were all Unfortunates and were all soliciting at the time they meet their murderer(s).

I dont care who disputes the following, these are factual points and not up for rebuttal, ... a quick review of the accepted known evidence concerning this issue and these cases....

1. Categorically, only 4 of the 5 can be classed as Unfortunate. The term refers to unmarried women who do not have ample employment to secure a bed each and every night, and so must resort to prostitution out of desperation. Ergo, Prostitution is not their only source of income.
2. Prostitutes do what they do as their primary source of income.
3. Only 2 women within the Canonical Group told others that they were in the process of earning their doss when they are last seen alive. Polly tells Emily Holland, and Annie tells Tim Donovan.
4. There is no hard evidence that Liz Stride, Kate Eddowes and Mary Kelly were also out "earning their beds for the night", and in Marys case, she is the only one of the 5 that cannot be classified as Unfortunate. The room is in her name, and she has been able to run arrears.
5. The last witness that saw Liz Stride alive that can be trusted without reservation is PC Smith, and when he sees Liz at 12:35am, she is on the street opposite the gates and talking with someone holding a parcel. We cannot assume that any further alleged sightings from 12:35am until 1am are given with absolute integrity for accuracy...Smith had a watch for one. And no other sighting has any verification.
6. There is no statement anywhere that suggests the street women of Whitechapel/Spitalfields dressed nicely, wore flowers, and had breath mints in order to facilitate their business with street clients.
7. Categorically, the highest instance of Sexually Transmitted diseases reported at the time of the murders occurred within the Dock workers category.
8. We have no evidence that Kate Eddowes was in fact soliciting, and we have reason to wonder about any identification that cannot be made within 2 weeks of the murder, as stated by the witness himself.
9. The International Working Mens Club on Berner Street was known by police before and after the murder on their property, before they were categorized as "anarchists", afterward some members get arrested in the Spring of '89 for assaulting police with bats and clubs.
10. Israel Schwartz's statement is given to us by recollection and in the words of CI Donald Swanson. He is not recorded as appearing at the Inquest, there is no evidence his statement was suppressed, as was Lawendes, and there is no evidence at all that the altercation he allegedly described ever took place.

I find this whole matter much easier to sort out if you read virtually every available document and source to get the full picture and as much of the detail as possible, determine what is provable and what is not by virtue of witness credibility, corroboration and known facts, and then proceed with the evidence that can be reasonably trusted.

To assume Stride was soliciting negates all the evidence that something much different was in her plans for that night, and it validates statements and opinions which have no factual or corroborative value.

I know which side of the fence Id rather be on...even if it means that individuals who choose to believe things that are not proven or reasonable continually suggest that I, and others, are misguided in our assessment methods and fanciful in our surmising.

My best regards

[RivkahChaya]

Michael, I agree with what you are trying to get at, and you know that I don't think either Stride or Eddowes was soliciting, and though I think MJK was a pro, I'm not sure she was actively soliciting on the night she was killed, and may have had someone show up at her door after she was "off" for the night.

However:

1. Categorically, only 4 of the 5 can be classed as Unfortunate. The term refers to unmarried women who do not have ample employment to secure a bed each and every night, and so must resort to prostitution out of desperation. Ergo, Prostitution is not their only source of income.
2. Prostitutes do what they do as their primary source of income.

If you are trying to structure this as some kind of syllogism, or at any rate, define away ambiguities, you cannot use the word "Prostitution" and "Prostitute" this way.

You have to define your terms better, for example, in "1."; "prostitution" with a lower case "p" is the act of exchanging sex for money, and does not imply a pattern of behavior, or the adoption of a regular scheme of procuring income. in "2."; "Prostitute" with a capital "P" is a person (in all our examples here, a woman), who as a matter of planning and intention, regularly exchanges sex for money, and this is generally regarded as her profession.

If you want a word to describe acting as a Prostitute over a period of time, you can't use "prostitution" as short-hand, because that already means something else. You can try calling it "Prostitution," but I promise that will be confusing. You'll have to say "acting as a professional prostitute," or something, and say it every time. Pros have their own words for it. Some call it "the life," and in context, everyone knows what it means.

Personally, I'd just as soon you use a modern term, like "sex workers." I realize it is anachronistic, but it is unambiguous, gets the point across, and feels much less judgmental, to me, than a lot of other terms.

[Michael W Richards]

Personally, I'd just as soon you use a modern term, like "sex workers." I realize it is anachronistic, but it is unambiguous, gets the point across, and feels much less judgmental, to me, than a lot of other terms.

Point taken Rivkah, and I agree with the above thinking too.

Cheers

[c.d.]

Hello Michael,

You have certainly put together a strong argument that Liz was not soliciting. But you are also trying to turn it into an if A then B argument which it is not. In other words, if you can show that Liz was not soliciting that night then she cannot be a Ripper victim. There are two problems with that. The first is that Liz's intention to actively solicit that night is not written in stone. You want us to believe that she swore a sacred oath in front of witnesses and signed in blood that she would not solicit that night. The other problem is that Jack would have absolutely no way of knowing whether she was soliciting unless she were holding up a sign. It is perfectly reasonable to assume that a woman by herself late at night out on the street was soliciting especially if he had seen her doing so before at some point. He might have even been a previous customer of hers. Now let's assume that he approaches her and is told that she is waiting for someone or given some other excuse. Now let's also assume that Liz is tired. It is late and she is cold. It might seem to her that whoever she is waiting for is not going to show up. Her financial situation is not good and she would like to have some money for drink or other purposes. Jack gives her a story about how he just got paid and he wants to have some fun. He offers twice the usual amount. Is she really going to turn that down? That is what we don't know and any argument attempting to show that she was not actively soliciting that night cannot give us an answer to that question. That's the rub.

c.d.