6d. Did Liz spend it, or die for it?

[curious]

Hello Rivkah.

"For example, if Eddowes was not soliciting, but possibly stumbling and staggering a little, from a combination of residual alcohol, very low blood sugar, and plain tiredness, JTR could have offered her an arm to lean on, and asked which way she was headed, instead of asking her if she'd "do" him for 4d."

Indeed. But it does not explain her direction--to Mitre sq rather than to Flower and Dean.

Cheers.
LC

Good Morning, Lynn,
I've pondered the same thing.

However, at that time of night, if she had no money and John had had only enough to purchase a bed for himself -- would there have been ANY reason to go to Flower and Dean? Could she had gotten in?

Perhaps she simply knew she could not get in and would be required to wander around for the rest of the night? In that case, one way would have been as good as another.

curious

[Observer]

Hi Rivkah

You miss my point. Mike Richards posted regarding Liz Stride.

" Including the one that irks me the most,..that despite any evidence validating the claim, she was soliciting at the time."

Your reply

I would go further, and say that if it weren't for the "down on whores" line in one of the letters which we are nonetheless sure was a hoax, we wouldn't assume that any Ripper victim must have been soliciting.

As I have already pointed out, long before the down on whores letter appeared, the general concensus was that JTR was targetting prostitutes. From the above lines you are making out as if the down on whores letter inspired the idea that Jack was targetting prostitutes. This is plainly not the case. The whole reason why the author of the letter included "I am down on whores" is down to the fact that (in the eyes of the public ) Jack had already murdered three prostitutes.


Regards

Observer

[Observer]

Good Morning, Lynn,
I've pondered the same thing.

However, at that time of night, if she had no money and John had had only enough to purchase a bed for himself -- would there have been ANY reason to go to Flower and Dean? Could she had gotten in?

Perhaps she simply knew she could not get in and would be required to wander around for the rest of the night? In that case, one way would have been as good as another.

curious

Hi curious.

And herein lies the biggest flaw in the conspiracy theorist arsenal, a total inability to take on board "the bleedin obvious". It amazes me that the slightest mundane piece of information regarding the whole Jack the Ripper stroy is pounced on, and turned into a mystery.

Regards

Observer

[lynn cates]

money and things

Hello Velma. Thanks.

"However, at that time of night, if she had no money and John had had only enough to purchase a bed for himself . . ."

Of course, John was able to stay the next night, so maybe . . .

" . . . would there have been ANY reason to go to Flower and Dean? Could she have gotten in?"

Why not? It was still relatively early. And she could always take John's bed whilst he wandered about. And was he not expecting her?

Cheers.
LC

[Observer]

. . .

" . . . would there have been ANY reason to go to Flower and Dean? Could she have gotten in?"

Why not? It was still relatively early. And she could always take John's bed whilst he wandered about. And was he not expecting her?

Cheers.
LC

Took John Kelly's bed? In the men's dormitory? I doubt it.

[Cogidubnus]

Took John Kelly's bed? In the men's dormitory? I doubt it.

Sorry Observer

Per the inquest evidence of Frederick William Wilkinson, deputy of the Flower and Dean lodging house, as reported in The Times 5th October 1888:-

"He had never known her being intimate with anyone but Kelly"

"Kelly called between 7.30 and 8 on Saturday night and took a single bed. A single bed was 4d and a double was 8d"

"He believed the last time the deceased and Kelly slept together at the lodginghouse was five or six weeks ago, before they went hopping"

"Kelly slept at the lodginghouse on Frday and Saturday night in No. 52 Single"

Clearly she COULD have gone to Flower and Dean, and probably WOULD have been admitted - the Deputy clearly accepted them as a couple, was used to them sleeping together, and would've been at least sympathetic to admitting her...or are you suggesting mixed company wasn't customary in at least some of the East End lodginghouses?

All the best

Dave

[Observer]

Hi Dave

Only one bed had been paid for. The "couples" slept in a different dormitory. Kelly would have been in the men's dormitory. Are you saying that the deputy would have let Kate Eddowes kip down in the men's dormitory? Remember it's being implied that Kelly would have gave up his bed for Kate Eddowes.

Regards

Observer

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Observer

I suspect in the normal course of matters, and in a location other than Flowery Dean, a Deputy may well have baulked...

But this IS Flowery Dean, the Deputy has known them for seven or eight years, (and comes across clearly, even at second hand, more than sympathetic towards them);

Uncharacteristically he seems to trust them regarding payment - I honestly think he'd admit her, and if he didn't let her into the Singles, I think he'd probably allow them enough credit to promote them to the Doubles...

Read him again afresh and see what you think...

All the best

Dave

[lynn cates]

Credit, where it's due.

Hello Dave.

"Clearly she COULD have gone to Flower and Dean, and probably WOULD have been admitted"

According to Fred, yes.

Cheers.
LC

[Observer]

Hi Dave

Call me a cynic but.

Regarding the deputy's statement, isn't it another story after the fact? There seems to be a thread running through witness statements, they all want to appear to have done the right thing. Take the deputy in question, I quote

"If they had told me the previous day that they had no money I would have trusted them. I trust all lodgers I know."

If the deputy had genuinly displayed this sort of human kindness, surely Kate Eddowes and John Kelly would have know this. They had after all lived there on and off for seven years. Why then did Eddowes and Kelly not appeal to his softer side on Friday night? Kelly had stayed there alone on Friday night while Eddowes had gone to the casual ward.

My mind takes me back to an even harsher environ than Flower and Dean Street, to Dorset strreet where Donovan had expelled poor Annie Chapman. Also to Thrawl street equally as harsh, where the deputy there had turned Polly Nichols out into the street.

Something tells me that Kate Eddowes, should she have turned up at Flower and Dean Street, would have suffered a similar fate to Polly Nichols, and Annie Chapman, and this is why she did not return to Flower and Dean Street that night.

Regards

Observer

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Observer

There's something in what you say...particularly the day to day cynicism differentiating actual deeds from presumed ideals!

(Though loyalty and sentimentality did apparently have some place in everyday behaviour... or at least according to my own family legend anyhow!)

As you suggest, however, it's sometimes hard to tell the truth from the bullshit in these Victorian accounts...even vis a vis the testimony from the very poorest of the poor... something we need to bear in mind when assessing the remaining evidence...

All the best

Dave

[Cogidubnus]

PS - I still think Wilkinson would've let her in!

Every good wish

Dave

[lynn cates]

Ultimately speaking.

Hello Dave.

"I still think Wilkinson would've let her in!"

Well, even John said as much to Kate as he suggested they spend money on food. (See "The Ultimate" p. 217.)

Cheers.
LC

[curious]

Hello Dave.

"I still think Wilkinson would've let her in!"

Well, even John said as much to Kate as he suggested they spend money on food. (See "The Ultimate" p. 217.)

Cheers.
LC

Hi, Lynn,
I know you find John Kelly's inquest testimony to be questionable -- at best, but quoting from that: http://www.casebook.org/official_doc...t_eddowes.html
[Coroner] What do you mean by "walking the streets?" - I mean that if we had no money to pay for our lodgings we would have to walk about all night. I was without money to pay for our lodgings at the time.

Good ole Wilkinson doesn't sound so trusting and forgiving to me.

It's late. Good night, all.

curious

[lynn cates]

location, location, location

Hello Velma. Thanks.

You are right about John's testimony.

Did John indicate where they had been staying at that time? Many dossers moved from location to location.

Cheers.
LC