6d. Did Liz spend it, or die for it?

[Abby Normal]

But that's another assumption, isn't it?




Accounts suggest these streets were not as empty as some tend to believe. Accosting a prospective victim and trying to get her into a quiet spot where he might get 10-15 minutes uninterrupted time with her could be a challenge in these overcrowded backstreets.

It is not the same as finding a quiet corner to engage in a 'quickie', because anyone stumbling on them engaged in sex, or hearing them in the dark, will make themselves scarce trying to look the other way. Not so if someone stumbles on a murder in progress, no-one is going to ignore that.

The killer may have been out every night, or several nights a week, and not always with murder in mind. We cannot surely assume that every time he steps outside at night he is only considering murder?

Isn't it more likely that something triggers his need to kill, than assume he always kills when out, and he is only out at the end of the month, or beginning, or whatever?

This is really what I was getting at.

Hi Wick
I see what your saying here, but the fact remains that the victims were all killed in either the beginning or end of a month(and on holidays or weekends).
It could be a coincidence or there could be a reason for it. I was merely asking if there is a reason-what could it be? Perhaps type of work?

Humor me. just pretend you agree with my premise that there is a reason for the pattern and its his work (or perhaps family/social situation). Can you think of anything like that that would prevent a killer from murdering on middle of the month days/weekends/holidays?
Im really just trying to brain storm here.

Who knows you may even be able to come up with something that matches the well off/dressesed man theory? (totally serious-not being snide).

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby

With the best will in the world I can't bring myself to accept that Marshal and Smith were describing the same man. Short cut away coat, as opposed to an overcoat, middle aged clerkly appearance, as opposed to a young man of 28. Smith described a man with a deerstalker hat, peak fore and aft, Marshall a peaked cap single peak, something a sailor might wear. Also Smith's man carried a newspaper parcel.

It's true Smith's sighting was later than Marshal's, so if they are describing the same man he could have acquired the parcel sometime after Marshall had spotted them. All in all though, I believe Liz Stride was in the company of more than one man leading up to her eventual murder

Regards

Observer

Hi observer
fair enough. Cant argue with that-you may be right. Just in my opinion the cap with a peak is what ties them all together, including the Lawende suspect.

[RivkahChaya]

It's dawning on me that a "peak" on a cap is a British term for a bill, or a visor, and therefore a baseball cap has a "peak." That is not what the term originally suggested to me.

This brings me to another point. How uncommon was a cap with a peak, or bill, or visor, whatever, in 1888? and what exactly did this cap look like? Like a newsboy cap? like a barracks hat?

[Wickerman]

It's dawning on me that a "peak" on a cap is a British term for a bill, or a visor, and therefore a baseball cap has a "peak." That is not what the term originally suggested to me.

This brings me to another point. How uncommon was a cap with a peak, or bill, or visor, whatever, in 1888? and what exactly did this cap look like? Like a newsboy cap? like a barracks hat?

Something like this...


Just out of interest, what did 'peak' suggest to you?

[RivkahChaya]

Something like this...


Just out of interest, what did 'peak' suggest to you?

That type of hat always make me think of this picture that Joey Heatherton was wearing in the Village Voice "Drugs R Us" edition*.

Since there was one place where someone said a "peaked cap, like a sailor's," or something, I guess I though it was a hat where the crown wasn't indented. I don't know. I didn't really think much about it. All hats had brims, and I guess I didn't think about what a hat with a brim that didn't go all the way around would be called. Having a bill or visor instead of a brim that goes all the way around is pretty much what distinguishes a (man's) "hat" from a "cap" in the US, or at least in the north. The south may say something entirely different. They call balconies "verandas," serve you iced tea with about 1/2 cup of sugar in it, unless you specify "hot tea," and sometimes still refer to young women who aren't yet engaged to be married as "debs." I never thought I'd hear that word in the 21st century.


*which was mostly about the hypocrisy of the "crack epidemic" hysteria, which you really had to see to believe. New York City had a high crime rate, and instead of blaming it on the economy and the poverty and hopelessness it produced, it was being blamed on the spectre of "crack"; not to mention that somehow when rich, white people used essentially the same drug, it was called something else, and no one got hysterical and witch-hunt-y about it.

[Wickerman]

Humor me. just pretend you agree with my premise that there is a reason for the pattern and its his work (or perhaps family/social situation). Can you think of anything like that that would prevent a killer from murdering on middle of the month days/weekends/holidays?
Im really just trying to brain storm here.

The authorities did consider the seaman, the drover, those who left London for a week or two at a time. I can't think of anything else that would keep a man away during the middle of the month, which is why I'm inclined towards a periodic trigger, and any number of failed attempts.

[RivkahChaya]

Maybe when his wife was PMSing, and then when she was actually menstruating.

No, I didn't really say that.

I could have been any stressor. I could have been when the rent was due, he didn't have the money to pay it, and was seriously stressed about it, and then again when he finally paid it, and had a confrontation with the landlord about how it couldn't be late again, and he was decompressing. Maybe his supervisor at work did periodic inspections, and because of the way the trains ran, he went back and forth, so they were twice a month, not at regular intervals, rather the second and last week of the month.

Anything, almost, could be at odd intervals. We have a small sample. When I was a teenager, and I got migraines, I got one about every five weeks, but I might get one, and get one the next week, or go two months without. If he was subject to some kind of homicidal attack that came about every two weeks, and we have a small sample, we might have a couple of one week intervals, and a couple of three week intervals.

There are all kinds of reasons for the attacks happening on weekends, but suffice to say that for nearly everyone, weekends are different from the rest of the week. We even have the word "weekend."

[Abby Normal]

It's dawning on me that a "peak" on a cap is a British term for a bill, or a visor, and therefore a baseball cap has a "peak." That is not what the term originally suggested to me.

This brings me to another point. How uncommon was a cap with a peak, or bill, or visor, whatever, in 1888? and what exactly did this cap look like? Like a newsboy cap? like a barracks hat?

Hi rc
That's agreat question. Does anyone know how common was a cap with a peak in London 1888?

[RivkahChaya]

Hi rc
That's agreat question. Does anyone know how common was a cap with a peak in London 1888?

In the US, until everyone started wearing the stupid souvenir truckers' caps, a cap with a bill/(peak) used to be associated with young boys. Men graduated to wearing hats with full brims. Among Orthodox Jews, a boy still gets his first hat with a full brim for his Bar Mitzvah.

Hats were out of fashion for a long time in the US, when men wore their hair long, and sunglasses were around to keep the sun out of your eyes. They've sort of come back, but mostly ball-cap type hats, or, like I said, those stupid trucker hats, which no one but a trucker should really wear. Or maybe a farmer.

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Jon

Thanks for your response - hope you don't mind me commenting, on this occasion by bolding...seems the only way to retain clarity...

Hi Dave

Best and Gardner were both local labourers, so I imagine she must have been quite shabby if they described her as porly dressed.

Yes Jon but Best and Gardner presumably had full-time steady work - whilst Liz Stride was at best a part-timer, and it could be that they looked at her with slightly biased eyes because of that - there are social nuances even (perhaps especially) in a poor neighbourhood

She was pinching stuff back from Kidney, without his permission, as she had a key to the padlock he put on the door of his lodgings. If she gave anything to the Deputy of the lodging house Kidney may have claimed it back. I think it was only the velvet that she asked someone to look after, I don`t recall any other possessions.

She's reclaiming her own most precious possessions Jon - her Hymnal and her piece of Velvet cloth - this suggests to me she's irrevocably broken up from Michael Kidney and wants to ensure the safety of her possessions...following on from this, a fresh relationship might be viewed as either cause or effect - ok we have no proof, but I feel it may be suggestive

She went out wearing the same clothes (her only clothes as far as I know)that she had worn whilst cleaning up after the white washing men earlier that day, and she asked if she could borrow a brush off a fellow lodger but he had mislaid the brush.

She made an effort to tidy herself up as best she could...she wore a flower (either a further effort on her own part to brighten up her image, or a present from a suitor...but not I would have thought a gift from a client)...she carried a packet of cachous...ditto

Perhaps she just didn`t like the look of him, he did turn out to be a tw#t after all. Francis Coles` friend, Ellen Callana turned down the man in the Cheese cutter hat because she didn`t like the look of him, and he proceeded to throw her about a bit too. Funnily enough, Coles went with him instead and she was found dead within the hour.

Maybe Jon, but set against that her behaviour in the pub earlier on - kissing and canoodling in the fashion described isn't really the behaviour of a woman soliciting...more like the slightly besotted behaviour of a new relationship

I don`t think it is forgotten, Dave. But in this instance Stride, who has prior, was apparently seen with a number of different men, and was hanging around on her own after midnight. As you say, she had a life to lead and soliciting was one of the few avenues open to her to raise a few pennies.

I'm glad to hear you say it's not forgotten...I'm afraid thought that some posters do seem to forget that the predefining element of these people's lives wasn't that they were prostitutes, but that they were women, real human beings with lives to lead...

All the best

Dave

[lynn cates]

how long?

Hello Jon. Thanks.

"She was certainly planning on being absent from the lodging house on Sat night."

Can't disagree there. I wonder if she'd go to all that trouble for a single night away?

Cheers.
LC

[Cogidubnus]

You may be right, but it wouldn't make a jot of difference either way, assuming her killer found her hanging round the club and had his own reasons for cutting her throat. Her appearance and behaviour earlier in the day can't help us with who he was, why he attacked her, or whether they had ever seen one another before.

Hi Caz

In turn you too may well be right...it could well be that either she was attacked by someone who thought she might be prostituting herself, or someone who knew she occasionally did, or someone whose predilection towards murdering vulnerable women by this time over-ruled such fine distinctions...

On the other hand she might've been killed by either Kidney resentful at her evident desertion to another, or by that self same "other" - I'm desperately trying to keep an open mind...mind you, I have to admit, I'm presently inclined towards Liz not being a ripper victim...but come back next week when I may've changed my mind yet again!

All the best

Dave

[RivkahChaya]

What do we know about Kidney? putting a padlock on the door seems vindictive, but it might have been a real attempt to protect his own things from being stolen and pawned.

I know people can be pretty resentful about break-ups, but really, murdering someone as payback?

Didn't he say at the inquest that she wasn't a prostitute, or am I confusing her with Eddowes? I mean, it would seem that taking an opportunity to shift blame onto the unknown Ripper who was at large would be great, if Kidney actually killed Stride. Does he seems to do that at the inquest, or the opposite?

Also, RE: the flower. There's been a lot said about a woman not buying a flower for herself, and I agreed, but I hadn't considered it along with the cashous and trying to spruce up her clothes, as possibly something she got for the scent, rather than the look. Is that possible at all? I know people had a much higher tolerance for BO then, but I'm thinking specifically some odor she might have picked up while cleaning.

[Paddy]

Was Liz waiting for work?

Just maybe liz was waiting for the return of Diemshultz? with the promise of a cleaning job late that night. After a jolly night out having a drink.

Deimshulz's wife would have wanted a hand clearing up after the people had all gone home I would have thought. Lots of glasses to wash and ashtrays to empty? Not to mention the floor.

It would be interesting to know if the club was due to open the next day and from what time Does anyone know please?

Pat Marshall

[Cogidubnus]

What do we know about Kidney? putting a padlock on the door seems vindictive, but it might have been a real attempt to protect his own things from being stolen and pawned.

I know people can be pretty resentful about break-ups, but really, murdering someone as payback?

Didn't he say at the inquest that she wasn't a prostitute, or am I confusing her with Eddowes? I mean, it would seem that taking an opportunity to shift blame onto the unknown Ripper who was at large would be great, if Kidney actually killed Stride. Does he seems to do that at the inquest, or the opposite?

Also, RE: the flower. There's been a lot said about a woman not buying a flower for herself, and I agreed, but I hadn't considered it along with the cashous and trying to spruce up her clothes, as possibly something she got for the scent, rather than the look. Is that possible at all? I know people had a much higher tolerance for BO then, but I'm thinking specifically some odor she might have picked up while cleaning.

Hi Rivkah

Michael Kidney has his apologists...Tom among them, (and in the interests of balance you ought to read his excellent dissertation on the subject), but as far as I can see there's really no proof either way...so, purely for the sake of argument, let's just slant the issue a slightly different way...

Kidney's a pimp, both living with Stride, and running her...whether she's earning through prostitution or cleaning. he's living off her...so what does he do if she attempts to assert herself, smuggles out her possessions, and breaks free? You think he's just going to shrug his shoulders and find some work? Or get angry?

(As a sub-text perhaps he finds her in Berners Street and demands she turns a client because he's thirsty - she refuses?)

At the inquest, he's the prime witness to the nature of their relationship... he's not going to admit he lived off her immoral earnings... that's not just a criminal offence but one he might even serve time for...

He padlocked the room? Virtually unknown at the time...you have to ask...to lock her in when she felt the urge to go free? Note how he emphasises how she'd go off every now and again...you bet she'd try to escape!

So if she's found a new protector, would she be emboldened to try again? In the light of which the flower could seriously be either her own purchase (to make herself more attractive), or an impulse gift from the mysterious suitor...who knows?

All the best

Dave