6d. Did Liz spend it, or die for it?

[Observer]

Hello Velma. Thanks.

"And, if good ole Wilkinson was indeed such a soft touch, why would they ever have had to walk about all night? If they couldn't stay any other place, surely they would have headed over to Wilkinson."

But again, where were they at the time?

Cheers.
LC

At the time of Kate Eddowes death, and the subsequent inquest (where Kelly stated that they walked about if no funds were at hand) Kelly was staying at good ole Fred's lodging house. And take very good note that on the Friday preceding her murder, Kate Eddowes had every opportunity to take advantage of Fred Wilkinsons's hospitality. Did she? No, in fact Kelly paid the fourpence for a bed at Fred's lodging house, and Eddowes stayed in the casual ward.

Enough of this nonsence. Kelly had stated that he had lived in the spitalfields area, for ten years. Mr Cates is well known for championing the virtues of "The Echo", well here's a quote from Kelly which appeared in their rag.

"I have lived in the Deans"-by which the street is familiarly known-"for about ten years. About seven years ago the woman whose body I saw yesterday came here Oh! she was a good soul, was my Kate! I made up to her, and we got on well together, and so we decided that we'd live together.

It's perfectly clear to everyone bar Mr Cates, that there is no shadow of any doubt, that when Kelly stated that he and Kate Eddowes walked the streets when they were penniless, he was in fact referring to their time in the Spitalfields area.

Regards

Observer

[lynn cates]

En donde esta?

Hello Velma. Thanks.

"And, if good ole Wilkinson was indeed such a soft touch, why would they ever have had to walk about all night? If they couldn't stay any other place, surely they would have headed over to Wilkinson."

But again, where were they at the time?

Cheers.
LC

[caz]

From the Inquest transcripts Caz, Blackwell's answer to a Juror question;

"I formed the opinion that the murderer probably caught hold of the silk scarf, which was tight and knotted, and pulled the deceased backwards, cutting her throat in that way. The throat might have been cut as she was falling, or when she was on the ground. The blood would have spurted about if the act had been committed while she was standing up."

How far back he pulled her using her scarf one cannot know, but it would appear its possible that Liz had chosen to exit the yard, her back was to the killer and the killer grabbed her scarf from behind and pulled her back inside.

In which case the killer chooses where she dies.

All the best Caz

Hi Mike,

Of course it's possible that Stride had chosen to leave the yard when her killer struck, whether she was aware of his presence or not. But then your argument is that she was waiting there for someone special, so why would she have chosen to leave unless she had given up waiting or was trying to get away from someone else?

What I'm saying is that no killer who valued his own neck would have risked mutilating her there, either where she was standing (too much danger of being caught in the act by whoever she was waiting for) or further into the yard (too many chances of interruption by club members). So if this was the ripper he would have been relying on her to choose another location, or to go off with him to find one. And if she wasn't playing ball his own choices were limited to killing her where she stood (or as far as he could have pulled her by her scarf in accordance with the physical evidence) or buggering off and hoping she wouldn't report him for suspicious behaviour.

Love,

Caz
X

[curious]

Hello Velma. Thanks.

You are right about John's testimony.

Did John indicate where they had been staying at that time? Many dossers moved from location to location.

Cheers.
LC

Hi, Lynn,

If Wilkinson had known them for 7 or 8 years, and there has been some discussion in this thread that this location was John's favorite, and this was where John was the night Kate was killed, why would we suppose John would suddenly go off topic and start talking about somewhere else?

And, if good ole Wilkinson was indeed such a soft touch, why would they ever have had to walk about all night? If they couldn't stay any other place, surely they would have headed over to Wilkinson.

It appears to me that John Kelly and Kate Eddowes had no idea they could spend a night anywhere without paying.

curious

[Michael W Richards]

I didn't mention a 'client'. I merely said it was Stride's choice to be where she was when she was murdered, since she wasn't dragged or forced there.

From the Inquest transcripts Caz, Blackwell's answer to a Juror question;

"I formed the opinion that the murderer probably caught hold of the silk scarf, which was tight and knotted, and pulled the deceased backwards, cutting her throat in that way. The throat might have been cut as she was falling, or when she was on the ground. The blood would have spurted about if the act had been committed while she was standing up."

How far back he pulled her using her scarf one cannot know, but it would appear its possible that Liz had chosen to exit the yard, her back was to the killer and the killer grabbed her scarf from behind and pulled her back inside.

In which case the killer chooses where she dies.

All the best Caz

[Observer]

Grasping at straws

Hi, Lynn,
I know you find John Kelly's inquest testimony to be questionable -- at best, but quoting from that: http://www.casebook.org/official_doc...t_eddowes.html
[Coroner] What do you mean by "walking the streets?" - I mean that if we had no money to pay for our lodgings we would have to walk about all night. I was without money to pay for our lodgings at the time.

Good ole Wilkinson doesn't sound so trusting and forgiving to me.

It's late. Good night, all.

curious

You beat me to it Curious. Talk is cheap, and it looks as if Fred Wilkinson was no different to Timothy Donovan. As I said there was every opportunity to test good ole Fred's hospitality on the Friday preceding Kate Eddowes death. John Kelly had earned 6d, which meant they were only 2d shy of the
8d required for a double berth. Did they go and test ole Fred's renowned hospitality? Not at all, Kelly took 4d and secured a bed while Kate Eddowes went to the casual ward.[/QUOTE]

You are right about John's testimony.

Did John indicate where they had been staying at that time? Many dossers moved from location to location..

So The Echo told the true story eh? Dear me.

The point is they were most definately within walking distance of Fair Hearted Fred during the time in question. In fact they had stayed at his doss house for the previous 7 years or so. Is John Kelly likely to refer back more than seven years when stating that they took to the streets when they were penniless? I think not. . And yet they tramped the streets when they had no money. As Curious has already pointed out it just doesn't wash.

[Observer]

PS - I still think Wilkinson would've let her in!

Every good wish

Dave

No problem Dave each to his own.

Regards

Observer

[caz]

Hi Mike,

Its not just the flower Caz, as you well know, there is a virtual case for Liz to have been waiting for something, or someone, specific, based on the totality of the evidence leading up to her disappearance,...sometime after PC Smith leaves.

I was referring to what the ripper would have seen if he came upon Stride for the first time when she was on her own, hanging round the club wearing a flower. He may not even have noticed the flower. But if he did, it was just the flower that you are suggesting would have made her different in the ripper's eyes from his other victims.

I wrote:

Similarly, Stride appears to have determined the spot where her killer cut her throat, which would - as you say - have given him little chance to mutilate if that had been his original aim....

...to which you replied:

Im not sure that Liz chose any spot to be with a client Caz, her choice may have been based on entirely different criteria...

I didn't mention a 'client'. I merely said it was Stride's choice to be where she was when she was murdered, since she wasn't dragged or forced there.

All I'm saying is that the ripper could have assumed - rightly or wrongly - that Stride was hanging about for customers, expected her to co-operate and go off with him just like Nichols and Chapman had, but was rebuffed, perhaps in a way that made him lose his temper.

Love,

Caz
X

[lynn cates]

location, location, location

Hello Velma. Thanks.

You are right about John's testimony.

Did John indicate where they had been staying at that time? Many dossers moved from location to location.

Cheers.
LC

[curious]

Hello Dave.

"I still think Wilkinson would've let her in!"

Well, even John said as much to Kate as he suggested they spend money on food. (See "The Ultimate" p. 217.)

Cheers.
LC

Hi, Lynn,
I know you find John Kelly's inquest testimony to be questionable -- at best, but quoting from that: http://www.casebook.org/official_doc...t_eddowes.html
[Coroner] What do you mean by "walking the streets?" - I mean that if we had no money to pay for our lodgings we would have to walk about all night. I was without money to pay for our lodgings at the time.

Good ole Wilkinson doesn't sound so trusting and forgiving to me.

It's late. Good night, all.

curious

[lynn cates]

Ultimately speaking.

Hello Dave.

"I still think Wilkinson would've let her in!"

Well, even John said as much to Kate as he suggested they spend money on food. (See "The Ultimate" p. 217.)

Cheers.
LC

[Cogidubnus]

PS - I still think Wilkinson would've let her in!

Every good wish

Dave

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Observer

There's something in what you say...particularly the day to day cynicism differentiating actual deeds from presumed ideals!

(Though loyalty and sentimentality did apparently have some place in everyday behaviour... or at least according to my own family legend anyhow!)

As you suggest, however, it's sometimes hard to tell the truth from the bullshit in these Victorian accounts...even vis a vis the testimony from the very poorest of the poor... something we need to bear in mind when assessing the remaining evidence...

All the best

Dave

[Observer]

Hi Dave

Call me a cynic but.

Regarding the deputy's statement, isn't it another story after the fact? There seems to be a thread running through witness statements, they all want to appear to have done the right thing. Take the deputy in question, I quote

"If they had told me the previous day that they had no money I would have trusted them. I trust all lodgers I know."

If the deputy had genuinly displayed this sort of human kindness, surely Kate Eddowes and John Kelly would have know this. They had after all lived there on and off for seven years. Why then did Eddowes and Kelly not appeal to his softer side on Friday night? Kelly had stayed there alone on Friday night while Eddowes had gone to the casual ward.

My mind takes me back to an even harsher environ than Flower and Dean Street, to Dorset strreet where Donovan had expelled poor Annie Chapman. Also to Thrawl street equally as harsh, where the deputy there had turned Polly Nichols out into the street.

Something tells me that Kate Eddowes, should she have turned up at Flower and Dean Street, would have suffered a similar fate to Polly Nichols, and Annie Chapman, and this is why she did not return to Flower and Dean Street that night.

Regards

Observer

[lynn cates]

Credit, where it's due.

Hello Dave.

"Clearly she COULD have gone to Flower and Dean, and probably WOULD have been admitted"

According to Fred, yes.

Cheers.
LC