6d. Did Liz spend it, or die for it?

[caz]

Hi Mike,

Its not just the flower Caz, as you well know, there is a virtual case for Liz to have been waiting for something, or someone, specific, based on the totality of the evidence leading up to her disappearance,...sometime after PC Smith leaves.

I was referring to what the ripper would have seen if he came upon Stride for the first time when she was on her own, hanging round the club wearing a flower. He may not even have noticed the flower. But if he did, it was just the flower that you are suggesting would have made her different in the ripper's eyes from his other victims.

I wrote:

Similarly, Stride appears to have determined the spot where her killer cut her throat, which would - as you say - have given him little chance to mutilate if that had been his original aim....

...to which you replied:

Im not sure that Liz chose any spot to be with a client Caz, her choice may have been based on entirely different criteria...

I didn't mention a 'client'. I merely said it was Stride's choice to be where she was when she was murdered, since she wasn't dragged or forced there.

All I'm saying is that the ripper could have assumed - rightly or wrongly - that Stride was hanging about for customers, expected her to co-operate and go off with him just like Nichols and Chapman had, but was rebuffed, perhaps in a way that made him lose his temper.

Love,

Caz
X

[Observer]

PS - I still think Wilkinson would've let her in!

Every good wish

Dave

No problem Dave each to his own.

Regards

Observer

[Observer]

Grasping at straws

Hi, Lynn,
I know you find John Kelly's inquest testimony to be questionable -- at best, but quoting from that: http://www.casebook.org/official_doc...t_eddowes.html
[Coroner] What do you mean by "walking the streets?" - I mean that if we had no money to pay for our lodgings we would have to walk about all night. I was without money to pay for our lodgings at the time.

Good ole Wilkinson doesn't sound so trusting and forgiving to me.

It's late. Good night, all.

curious

You beat me to it Curious. Talk is cheap, and it looks as if Fred Wilkinson was no different to Timothy Donovan. As I said there was every opportunity to test good ole Fred's hospitality on the Friday preceding Kate Eddowes death. John Kelly had earned 6d, which meant they were only 2d shy of the
8d required for a double berth. Did they go and test ole Fred's renowned hospitality? Not at all, Kelly took 4d and secured a bed while Kate Eddowes went to the casual ward.[/QUOTE]

You are right about John's testimony.

Did John indicate where they had been staying at that time? Many dossers moved from location to location..

So The Echo told the true story eh? Dear me.

The point is they were most definately within walking distance of Fair Hearted Fred during the time in question. In fact they had stayed at his doss house for the previous 7 years or so. Is John Kelly likely to refer back more than seven years when stating that they took to the streets when they were penniless? I think not. . And yet they tramped the streets when they had no money. As Curious has already pointed out it just doesn't wash.

[Michael W Richards]

I didn't mention a 'client'. I merely said it was Stride's choice to be where she was when she was murdered, since she wasn't dragged or forced there.

From the Inquest transcripts Caz, Blackwell's answer to a Juror question;

"I formed the opinion that the murderer probably caught hold of the silk scarf, which was tight and knotted, and pulled the deceased backwards, cutting her throat in that way. The throat might have been cut as she was falling, or when she was on the ground. The blood would have spurted about if the act had been committed while she was standing up."

How far back he pulled her using her scarf one cannot know, but it would appear its possible that Liz had chosen to exit the yard, her back was to the killer and the killer grabbed her scarf from behind and pulled her back inside.

In which case the killer chooses where she dies.

All the best Caz

[curious]

Hello Velma. Thanks.

You are right about John's testimony.

Did John indicate where they had been staying at that time? Many dossers moved from location to location.

Cheers.
LC

Hi, Lynn,

If Wilkinson had known them for 7 or 8 years, and there has been some discussion in this thread that this location was John's favorite, and this was where John was the night Kate was killed, why would we suppose John would suddenly go off topic and start talking about somewhere else?

And, if good ole Wilkinson was indeed such a soft touch, why would they ever have had to walk about all night? If they couldn't stay any other place, surely they would have headed over to Wilkinson.

It appears to me that John Kelly and Kate Eddowes had no idea they could spend a night anywhere without paying.

curious

[caz]

From the Inquest transcripts Caz, Blackwell's answer to a Juror question;

"I formed the opinion that the murderer probably caught hold of the silk scarf, which was tight and knotted, and pulled the deceased backwards, cutting her throat in that way. The throat might have been cut as she was falling, or when she was on the ground. The blood would have spurted about if the act had been committed while she was standing up."

How far back he pulled her using her scarf one cannot know, but it would appear its possible that Liz had chosen to exit the yard, her back was to the killer and the killer grabbed her scarf from behind and pulled her back inside.

In which case the killer chooses where she dies.

All the best Caz

Hi Mike,

Of course it's possible that Stride had chosen to leave the yard when her killer struck, whether she was aware of his presence or not. But then your argument is that she was waiting there for someone special, so why would she have chosen to leave unless she had given up waiting or was trying to get away from someone else?

What I'm saying is that no killer who valued his own neck would have risked mutilating her there, either where she was standing (too much danger of being caught in the act by whoever she was waiting for) or further into the yard (too many chances of interruption by club members). So if this was the ripper he would have been relying on her to choose another location, or to go off with him to find one. And if she wasn't playing ball his own choices were limited to killing her where she stood (or as far as he could have pulled her by her scarf in accordance with the physical evidence) or buggering off and hoping she wouldn't report him for suspicious behaviour.

Love,

Caz
X

[lynn cates]

En donde esta?

Hello Velma. Thanks.

"And, if good ole Wilkinson was indeed such a soft touch, why would they ever have had to walk about all night? If they couldn't stay any other place, surely they would have headed over to Wilkinson."

But again, where were they at the time?

Cheers.
LC

[Observer]

Hello Velma. Thanks.

"And, if good ole Wilkinson was indeed such a soft touch, why would they ever have had to walk about all night? If they couldn't stay any other place, surely they would have headed over to Wilkinson."

But again, where were they at the time?

Cheers.
LC

At the time of Kate Eddowes death, and the subsequent inquest (where Kelly stated that they walked about if no funds were at hand) Kelly was staying at good ole Fred's lodging house. And take very good note that on the Friday preceding her murder, Kate Eddowes had every opportunity to take advantage of Fred Wilkinsons's hospitality. Did she? No, in fact Kelly paid the fourpence for a bed at Fred's lodging house, and Eddowes stayed in the casual ward.

Enough of this nonsence. Kelly had stated that he had lived in the spitalfields area, for ten years. Mr Cates is well known for championing the virtues of "The Echo", well here's a quote from Kelly which appeared in their rag.

"I have lived in the Deans"-by which the street is familiarly known-"for about ten years. About seven years ago the woman whose body I saw yesterday came here Oh! she was a good soul, was my Kate! I made up to her, and we got on well together, and so we decided that we'd live together.

It's perfectly clear to everyone bar Mr Cates, that there is no shadow of any doubt, that when Kelly stated that he and Kate Eddowes walked the streets when they were penniless, he was in fact referring to their time in the Spitalfields area.

Regards

Observer

[Michael W Richards]

...your argument is that she was waiting there for someone special, so why would she have chosen to leave unless she had given up waiting or was trying to get away from someone else?

....What I'm saying is that no killer who valued his own neck would have risked mutilating her there,...... . .

To the first section Caz, I suggest that she was being harassed by the man she encountered in the passage, and that she turned and started to walk away from him, back out into the street....the bruises on the chest seem like pokes by a bully to me.

As to the second section, I suggest no mutilator would choose a spot he could not mutilate in, nor would he kill anyway if it was unsuitable. The objective clearly demonstrated by the killer of Polly and Annie was the post mortem activity.....I doubt he would simply kill if a situation was likely to deny him that objective.

A thug would simply kill.

Best regards

[curious]

Hello Velma. Thanks.

"And, if good ole Wilkinson was indeed such a soft touch, why would they ever have had to walk about all night? If they couldn't stay any other place, surely they would have headed over to Wilkinson."

But again, where were they at the time?

Cheers.
LC

Hello, Lynn, Thanks.

If you are so stuck on where they were at the time, if you believe it was somewhere else, why not share your thinking?

I ask you, where do you believe they were at the time?

Velma

[Wickerman]

....the bruises on the chest seem like pokes by a bully to me.

The fact that Chapman had similar bruises has always troubled me.

[curious]

The fact that Chapman had similar bruises has always troubled me.

Any thoughts on what might have caused them?

thanks,

curious

[Wickerman]

I think they are the 'trade mark' of a prostitute.

[lynn cates]

money

Hello Velma. Thanks.

"If you are so stuck on where they were at the time, if you believe it was somewhere else, why not share your thinking?"

OK. Surely somewhere in London, likely east end. But NOT sure where they were in relation to Cooney's.

Fred and John both made the same claim about credit. Of course, both could be lying. John did not seem to stick at a contradiction, so why not here?

And the big question is, how did John live between Sunday morning and Tuesday night? He claimed:

1. he had no money

and

2. had no success at the market

One explanation regarding doss is that Fred extended credit. But if not, whence came John's money?

Cheers.
LC

[curious]

Hello Velma. Thanks.

"If you are so stuck on where they were at the time, if you believe it was somewhere else, why not share your thinking?"

OK. Surely somewhere in London, likely east end. But NOT sure where they were in relation to Cooney's.

Fred and John both made the same claim about credit. Of course, both could be lying. John did not seem to stick at a contradiction, so why not here?

And the big question is, how did John live between Sunday morning and Tuesday night? He claimed:

1. he had no money

and

2. had no success at the market

One explanation regarding doss is that Fred extended credit. But if not, whence came John's money?

Cheers.
LC

Hi, Lynn,
I see what you're getting out.

I suspect that after it was discovered that Kate had been killed in such a horrible manner, Fred and possibly other friends did "help" John out some. In horrible times, people do seem to do that.

Velma