6d. Did Liz spend it, or die for it?

[lynn cates]

different?

Hello Jon. Thanks.

The testimony does allow some wriggle room. And he did note an important difference.

Now, about those "dahlias."

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

Hello Jon. Thanks.

"Stride was also seen in the Bricklayers Arms about 11-ish that same night.
I can't imagine her presence in both of these these pubs was to promote the temperance movement"

Nor yet I. but cannot a very different conclusion be drawn, namely, that it was not Liz who was spotted there?

Cheers.
LC

Thats a tough call Lynn.

Best:
"I have been to the mortuary, and am almost certain the woman there is the one we saw at the Bricklayers' Arms. She is the same slight woman, and seems the same height. The face looks the same, but a little paler, and the bridge of the nose does not look so prominent."

Gardner:
"...before I got into the mortuary to-day (Sunday), I told you the woman had a flower in her jacket, and that she had a short jacket. Well, I have been to the mortuary and there she was with the dahlias on her right side of her jacket."

[lynn cates]

conclusion

Hello Jon. Thanks.

"Stride was also seen in the Bricklayers Arms about 11-ish that same night.
I can't imagine her presence in both of these these pubs was to promote the temperance movement"

Nor yet I. but cannot a very different conclusion be drawn, namely, that it was not Liz who was spotted there?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

stomach contents

Hello Rivkah. Her stomach contained cheese, potato and a farinaceous substance.

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

... As for Jon's idea that she used the money to buy drinks at the pub before going out that night, the landlady stated that she had bought Liz a drink afterwork sometime between 5 and 6pm.

Ok thanks, all the more reason to suppose that Stride spent her hard-earned money in the pub, if she was known to have been there so long, from about 5:00 until 6:30 when she walked back home with Tanner.

Do you happen to have the source for this story that Tanner bought her a drink between 5 and 6pm?
Even the victim timeline does not include this statement and I cannot see any Inquest testimony which provides this detail. Though if it were true it only helps to bolster the possibility Stride spent it on drink & perhaps the cheese & potato meal?

.

[Michael W Richards]

Hello Lynn and Michael,

The explanation for why Jack might have killed Liz but chose not to kill her is profoudly simple. Given a choice between being caught and hanged and running off to kill again, he chose the latter. You both simply refuse to accept that idea.

As for the 6d, Michael you are still insisting upon your if A then B argument. Show that Liz was not soliciting and you have shown that she could have not have been killed by the Ripper. But as it has been pointed out to you numerous times Jack would have no way of knowing that she was not soliciting unless he approached her. You now have Jack and Liz together and it is anybody's guess what happened next.

I think it makes sense that Jack took the 6d. That is as good an explanation as any.

I think that Jack acted on the spur of the moment. He realized that he had made a mistake by killing Liz in such close proximity to other people. We don't know how much time Jack had with Liz after he killed her. If she had cried out when he cut her throat, he might have been afraid that someone heard the cry and that was the impetus for him to get out of there as soon as possible. That's is why there is no indication of a further intention to mutilate.

There you go, boys. Simple, rational explanations based on self preservation.

c.d.

That seems to be thought out cd, however, it doesnt address a scenario that I mentioned previously, if he was talking to Liz, trying to pick her up, or following her as she led him further into the yard for a reasonably secure spot for mutilations.....he is doing so without his weapon. The only time to pull the knife is when he is killing or cutting...not prospecting.

There would be no need to kill a woman he has not shown the knife to...nor is there a Ripper who just kills women without at least the obvious intention of cutting into the victim afterward is demonstrated.

As to my "insistence" that Liz spent the money on the flower and mints....lets just say that Ive heard no idea that accounts for their sudden appearance coupled with her 6d's sudden disappearance.

All the best

[Wickerman]

Hello Jon. Presumably not a malted beverage.

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn.

Apparently, alcohol is absorbed through the stomach walls very quickly.
Stride was also seen in the Bricklayers Arms about 11-ish that same night.
I can't imagine her presence in both of these these pubs was to promote the temperance movement

[Michael W Richards]

What evidence do we have for Stride not having drunk anything, other than stomach contents? Did the police canvass all the possible places she could have bought it?

If you haven't eaten anything, alcohol empties from the stomach pretty rapidly, so isn't it possible she bought something shortly after 7, and it was gone from her stomach by the time she was killed?

I realize that doesn't fit any of the narratives we have very well, unless we want to presume she was an alcoholic, who needed to stave off the DTs, but it would explain where the 6d went.

She was tested for traces of alcohol Rivkah, and there was none. As for Jon's idea that she used the money to buy drinks at the pub before going out that night, the landlady stated that she had bought Liz a drink afterwork sometime between 5 and 6pm.

Its probable that was her last malt beverage.

Best regards

[RivkahChaya]

What evidence do we have for Stride not having drunk anything, other than stomach contents? Did the police canvass all the possible places she could have bought it?

If you haven't eaten anything, alcohol empties from the stomach pretty rapidly, so isn't it possible she bought something shortly after 7, and it was gone from her stomach by the time she was killed?

I realize that doesn't fit any of the narratives we have very well, unless we want to presume she was an alcoholic, who needed to stave off the DTs, but it would explain where the 6d went.

[lynn cates]

alcohol

Hello Jon. Presumably not a malted beverage.

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

Im also wondering why no-one (else) seems to have any sensible ideas on where the 6d went, considering Liz was sober, and she didnt have it on her.

Stride cleaned Tanner's rooms on Sat. afternoon, and received 6d for her troubles.

When Catherine Lane saw Liz between 6-7 o'clock she did not appear to have been drinking, but had the 6d on her.

Elizabeth Tanner saw Stride in the Queens Head Pub at 6:30, possibly drinking the 6d she had paid her earlier.

.

[lynn cates]

O K

Hello CD. Thanks.

"The explanation for why Jack might have killed Liz but chose not to kill her is profoudly simple. Given a choice between being caught and hanged and running off to kill again, he chose the latter. You both simply refuse to accept that idea."

Not at all. In fact, this goes for ALL the killings and, if carried to a logical conclusion, rules out all the WCM.

"I think that Jack acted on the spur of the moment. He realized that he had made a mistake by killing Liz in such close proximity to other people."

Actually, I can live with this. Of course, it would preclude all nonsense about planning, stalking, letters, graffiti, taunting and so on.

Cheers.
LC

[c.d.]

Hello Lynn and Michael,

The explanation for why Jack might have killed Liz but chose not to kill her is profoudly simple. Given a choice between being caught and hanged and running off to kill again, he chose the latter. You both simply refuse to accept that idea.

As for the 6d, Michael you are still insisting upon your if A then B argument. Show that Liz was not soliciting and you have shown that she could have not have been killed by the Ripper. But as it has been pointed out to you numerous times Jack would have no way of knowing that she was not soliciting unless he approached her. You now have Jack and Liz together and it is anybody's guess what happened next.

I think it makes sense that Jack took the 6d. That is as good an explanation as any.

I think that Jack acted on the spur of the moment. He realized that he had made a mistake by killing Liz in such close proximity to other people. We don't know how much time Jack had with Liz after he killed her. If she had cried out when he cut her throat, he might have been afraid that someone heard the cry and that was the impetus for him to get out of there as soon as possible. That's is why there is no indication of a further intention to mutilate.

There you go, boys. Simple, rational explanations based on self preservation.

c.d.

[lynn cates]

mistake

Hello CD. Thanks.

Very well. Could you elaborate the nature of that "mistake"?

Cheers.
LC

[Michael W Richards]

Im also wondering why no-one (else) seems to have any sensible ideas on where the 6d went, considering Liz was sober, and she didnt have it on her.

Ive said earlier, and not surprising to me...since it makes so much sense.... that it will likely be ignored by many posters, is that we have missing money and 2 things Liz was not stated to have upon her person when she left the lodging house for the night.

It isnt brain surgery to imagine thats where the 6d went...and if she spent the only money that we knew she had at the time on a flower and some mints, then she wasnt concerned about her doss money. We have her meeting several men over the course of the evening and apparently not slipping off into an alley with any of them....so her "earning" some money by solicitation is a completely unsupported supposition when using the actual evidence here.

Which to me would be a relief....if we used only the evidence available in this murder there would be no debate as to whether or not a serial mutilator killed her. Then we could focus on discovering who actually killed her...not why a serial mutilator who cuts womens throats twice and guts them cuts Liz's throat once in a spot unsuitable for further "work" and then leaves to go an do what he originally intended to do somewhere else.

Unfortunately, there is no evidence of any further intentions. So, You either have someone who killed Liz, or the Phantom Menace... somehow scared off from completing his objectives, even though he has a few minutes alone with the corpse to do so. Or a Phantom Menace who decides to kill when he knows he cannot do anything else. Neither are sound ideas.

Best regards