Was Stride Really a JtR Victim?

[Paddy]

Was she a victim?

The killers MO for the other murders was quick, without reported arguments and a means to an end. Strides' however seemed an anger murder.

I have always thought that Strides murder was connected, because the police seemed so sure. Packers statement of the man living in the next street fitted Kosminski's brother (and possibly Kosminski) living in Providence street.
In theory he could have been returning to his home and found Liz and was very angry with her for some reason. Maybe still hanging around after refusing his advances earlier?

However you all put up some good points and I am swayed slightly.

Another possible reason being, once he had murdered her and the witness had run off (possibly to get police) the best place to go would be into the club and mingle.
However if he did, the fact that all club members were detained there and checked, would not allow him time to go off to Mitre square.

I checked out MEPO 3 /140 and it mentions Schwartz's statement was presented at the inquest, but doesn't mention him being there in person.

I have just realised I am making the assumption that the murderer was Jewish. However Anderson and Swanson thought this too !

Unfortunately just one of many possibilities !
Pat...................

[Paddy]

Booths police diarys

Police wrote the following (at a much later date) which I find interesting.


Pat..........................

[Abby Normal]

The killers MO for the other murders was quick, without reported arguments and a means to an end. Strides' however seemed an anger murder.

I have always thought that Strides murder was connected, because the police seemed so sure. Packers statement of the man living in the next street fitted Kosminski's brother (and possibly Kosminski) living in Providence street.
In theory he could have been returning to his home and found Liz and was very angry with her for some reason. Maybe still hanging around after refusing his advances earlier?

However you all put up some good points and I am swayed slightly.

Another possible reason being, once he had murdered her and the witness had run off (possibly to get police) the best place to go would be into the club and mingle.
However if he did, the fact that all club members were detained there and checked, would not allow him time to go off to Mitre square.

I checked out MEPO 3 /140 and it mentions Schwartz's statement was presented at the inquest, but doesn't mention him being there in person.

I have just realised I am making the assumption that the murderer was Jewish. However Anderson and Swanson thought this too !

Unfortunately just one of many possibilities !
Pat...................

Hi Paddy
Think peaked cap. Most of the witnesses that night describe a man wearing a peaked cap, including Schwartz the Stride witness and Lawende the Eddowes witness.
It seals the deal for me that both stride and eddowes were killed by the same man- the ripper was wearing a cap with a peak that night.

[GregBaron]

How many peaks per Parish...

Police wrote the following (at a much later date) which I find interesting.


Pat..........................

Hi Paddy,

In general Jews aren't big drinkers. Feel free to correct me my Jewish colleagues. It's a cultural thing I suppose. Perhaps it's best to be on one's toes when persecution is rampant..........of course this doesn't explain the Irish.....

Think peaked cap. Most of the witnesses that night describe a man wearing a peaked cap, including Schwartz the Stride witness and Lawende the Eddowes witness.
It seals the deal for me that both stride and eddowes were killed by the same man- the ripper was wearing a cap with a peak that night.

Abby's a peaked cap man and understandably so. The question is, how many
ordinary blokes wore such caps on a typical evening in Whitechapel...?

The killers MO for the other murders was quick, without reported arguments and a means to an end. Strides' however seemed an anger murder.

Stride was also dispatched quickly. This is a ripper MO. Most domestics
are drawn out affairs meant to prolong suffering....this was anything but...
I wonder how many Whitechapel men could lie a victim down and slit a throat with such swift skill.........?


Greg

[Garry Wroe]

There is no need for me to re-evaluate the evidence, Garry, for two reasons:

a) I already did and arrived at a conclusion with which you disagree

Forgive me, Phil, but it was you who disagreed with my contention that Stride's throat could not have been cut during the street fracas witnessed by Schwartz.

b) I do not rule out Stride as a Ripper victim, I simply do not lean so strongly in that direction as I once did. I'd say it was a 75% against situation.

You'll get no argument from me on that score.

I might equally as well turn around and suggest you re-evaluate the evidence. It is your certainty with which I disagree, not your right to draw any conclusions you wish. Reject mine though you will, mine are still evidentially based and as valid (on that basis) as any others

That's my point, though, Phil. Your position isn't supported by the available evidence. Had Stride's throat been cut during the altercation observed by Schwartz, blood from the throat wound would have run down her chest (towards her feet) as she walked, staggered or crawled to the spot inside the yard on which her body was discovered. The same would apply even if she'd been dragged to this locus by Broad Shoulders. And yet, despite careful examination by several doctors, no such evidence was discovered. The evidence insinuated that the throat had been incised whilst Stride lay in the position she maintained when Diemschutz chanced upon the body. In other words the injury was sustained whilst she was in the yard and lying on the ground.

[Phil H]

You are being contrary, Garry.

We clearly disagree on the issues, whether it is i with you or you with me, is hardly important.

How can you agree with me when I believe it 75% likely that Stride was NOT a Ripper victim.

I have cited my reasons 9evidence0 frequently. You do not accept that - but why should that worry me? I have simply stated my conclusions. End of story and I see no point in further debate between us, unless on issues, not my conclusions. I think we are too far apart and you too inflexible for a concensus to be reached.

Phil

[Garry Wroe]

How can you agree with me when I believe it 75% likely that Stride was NOT a Ripper victim.

Had you bothered to read my posts, Phil, you'd know that I've been questioning the notion of Stride as a Ripper victim for nigh on twenty-five years.

[Phil H]

I'm afraid that point got lost amid the verbiage - what on earth are we disagreeing about then?

Phil

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Yo GB

Stride was also dispatched quickly. This is a ripper MO. Most domestics
are drawn out affairs meant to prolong suffering....this was anything but...
I wonder how many Whitechapel men could lie a victim down and slit a throat with such swift skill.........?


Greg[/QUOTE]

That's an aspect that I think gets thrown to the wayside with too much ease it seems. Thanks.

[Michael W Richards]

Hi folks,

It seems that there is some effort being made to suggest that the people seen by Schwartz, according to his statement,...and by Lawende, according to his...are a match for each other. They are not.

"About 30; ht, 5 ft 5 in; comp., fair; hair, dark; small brown moustache, full face, broad shouldered; dress, dark jacket and trousers, black cap with peak."

"Of shabby appearance, about 30 years of age and 5ft. 9in. in height, of fair complexion, having a small fair moustache, and wearing a red neckerchief and a cap with a peak".

The first is the description given by Schwartz, the second by Lawende. I dont have to point out that 4 inches of height difference is substantial and that the second witness described the man as dressed "shabby", which the first witness did not say when describing his "suspect". There is also no mention of the feature that figures most prominently in Israels account...the Broad Shoulders. There is no mention of any kind of physical feature by Lawende that might suggest breadth.

Coupled with the fact that if killer at location A moves to a second location B within 1/2 hour, it wouldnt be likely that he would also change or add fashion accessories between the venues.

Schwartz did not describe the man Lawende saw, but Lawende didnt necessarily see his man as well as his description suggests..he stated he would not recognize the man if he saw him again within 2 weeks of that statement.

Which makes the belief he was some star witness pulled out to view lineups a few times over the next few years somewhat curious.

Best regards,

[GregBaron]

Rough looking dock worker...

Sorry Michael but these are close enough given the notorious unreliability of eyewitness testimony and also the lighting conditions and other blurring factors.

Also, Levy had the Mitre Sq. man at 5’3” and I know there’s a report of 5’7”. These are trifles. Not everyone notices things like broad shoulders and perhaps they were obscured by the woman. Peaked cap and fair may be the most telling points.

I’m not necessarily saying BS killed Stride and then moved to Mitre Square but I don’t think you can rule it out based on these questionable descriptions…


Greg

[DVV]

Rough looking dock worker, exactly Greg.
And you should not rule out the most likely, indeed.

Cheers

[Abby Normal]

Hi folks,

It seems that there is some effort being made to suggest that the people seen by Schwartz, according to his statement,...and by Lawende, according to his...are a match for each other. They are not.

"About 30; ht, 5 ft 5 in; comp., fair; hair, dark; small brown moustache, full face, broad shouldered; dress, dark jacket and trousers, black cap with peak."

"Of shabby appearance, about 30 years of age and 5ft. 9in. in height, of fair complexion, having a small fair moustache, and wearing a red neckerchief and a cap with a peak".

The first is the description given by Schwartz, the second by Lawende. I dont have to point out that 4 inches of height difference is substantial and that the second witness described the man as dressed "shabby", which the first witness did not say when describing his "suspect". There is also no mention of the feature that figures most prominently in Israels account...the Broad Shoulders. There is no mention of any kind of physical feature by Lawende that might suggest breadth.

Coupled with the fact that if killer at location A moves to a second location B within 1/2 hour, it wouldnt be likely that he would also change or add fashion accessories between the venues.

Schwartz did not describe the man Lawende saw, but Lawende didnt necessarily see his man as well as his description suggests..he stated he would not recognize the man if he saw him again within 2 weeks of that statement.

Which makes the belief he was some star witness pulled out to view lineups a few times over the next few years somewhat curious.

Best regards,

5 ft. 9in. ???

[moonbegger]

Coupled with the fact that if killer at location A moves to a second location B within 1/2 hour, it wouldnt be likely that he would also change or add fashion accessories between the venues.

But it is possible ..

The police have had in their possession a shirt saturated in blood. It is said to have been left in a house in Batty-street after the murders.
The statement has been made that the landlady of the lodging-house, 22, Batty-street - the house in which the shirt was left - was, at an early hour, disturbed by the movements of her lodger, who changed some of his apparel and went away; first, however, instructing her to wash the cast-off shirt by the time he returned.

moonbegger

[DVV]

Hi Abby

Mike chooses to quote The Times in preference to the Home Office files or Joseph Hyam Levy.

Cheers