Was Stride Really a JtR Victim?

[Wickerman]

Hi Garry
Where does Schwartz ever say he witnessed a "domestic"? I have seen you say this before.

There was this partial report in the Echo, Oct 1st, but as Garry said, I'm sure it appeared elsewhere.

"The police authorities have received an important statement in reference to the Berner-street crime. It is to the effect that a man between 35 and 40 years of age, and of fair complexion, was seen to throw the murdered woman to the ground. It was thought by the person who witnessed this that it was a man and his wife quarrelling, and consequently no notice was taken of it."

Although not named, we know of no other witness to such an incident than Israel Schwartz.

[Colin Roberts]

"Jack", again in my opinion, confined his activities north of Whitechapel High St ...

You've stated as much many times.

Is it conviction or just a gut feeling?

We all have our gut feelings and we shouldn't be hesitant to voice them in public. But I would argue that there could be little to any basis for such conviction, in this particular instance.

... (though I note recent research that could link Aaron Kosminski to the Berner St area).

Of course, we have known for many years that he probably resided (somewhere) south of Whitechapel High Street in 1888: e.g. Greenfield Street, Yalford Street, etc.

[drstrange169]

"...Although not named, we know of no other witness to such an incident than Israel Schwartz."

Pipeman.

[Phil H]

[B]"Jack", again in my opinion, confined his activities north of Whitechapel High St ...
You've stated as much many times.
Is it conviction or just a gut feeling?
We all have our gut feelings and we shouldn't be hesitant to voice them in public. But I would argue that there could be little to any basis for such conviction, in this particular instance.[/B]

Then you argue what you believe and I'll argue the conclusions I reach - no one says we have to agree, and insights can sometimes flow from genuine discussion.

My point about Berner St possibly being off the "Ripper's" "patch" is neither conviction nor gut feeling - its based on looking at the distribution of the murders plotted on a street map! As all the other murders (bar the Pinchen St torso) are NORTH of the high St, and to me the Stride killing has features that make it for me unlikely to be by the hand of "Jack", it makes me ask a question, nothing more.

It is not a theory, a proposal, or a hypothesis, just an observation that may or may not have meaning. It has only the value that individuals place on it.

If you do not see the point, fair enough, it is not for me to convince you.

On the other hand, think about this - there must have been SOME limits that cicumscribed "Jack's" patch, and from time to time a murder will be discussed and someone will say - too far east, or not in the right area. Those with appropriate expertise draw complex maps to determine where the centre of Jack's patch was. So we do make decisions about such things. You simply don't see the point of mine (possibly because you feel certain Stride WAS a Ripper killing). That's fine.

Phil

[Phil H]

If Schwartz was telling the truth, Phil, he did see an attack - the one that took place in the street. But this wasn't the knife attack. The bloodflow pattern observed by the medical men renders this an absolute certainty.
Garry – you are very certain. I’m afraid i cannot and do not share that certainty.

Kidney was cleared by the police as a suspect. And does anyone really believe that a man who killed his lover would show up at a police station and emotionally complain about what a bad job they did? C'mon.
Kidney didn't do it.

If that’s your approach to evidence, Abby, you are frankly welcome to it. I’ll question, reason and discuss any and every point if need be. Resting on the logic of 120 odd years has got us nowhere – original research (above all) and re-thinking everything we know are in my view the two approaches that MIGHT just take us forward.

As with Garry’s point above, I regret I cannot share your certainty.

Phil

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Hullo!

What is there that supports substantiates etc. Kidney being Strides killer? Does IS's description come close to Kidney? Somebody got something remotely firm? Not pro-"JTR" just tired of domestic with nothing solid to support it.

[Garry Wroe]

Which would point to the MO of the ripper then right? The victim is incapacitated first, laid on the ground and then throat cut?

No, Abby. Nothing about the Stride killing is consistent with the Ripper's established mode of operation.

[Garry Wroe]

There was this partial report in the Echo, Oct 1st, but as Garry said, I'm sure it appeared elsewhere.

Thanks, Jon.

[Garry Wroe]

We all have our gut feelings and we shouldn't be hesitant to voice them in public. But I would argue that there could be little to any basis for such conviction, in this particular instance.

David Canter has done some work in this very area, Colin, He concluded that rivers, railway lines, buildings, roads and suchlike do indeed act as psychological boundaries. His contention, I believe, was that the Whitechapel Road would have assumed just such a boundary in the mind of the killer.

[Garry Wroe]

If Schwartz was telling the truth, Phil, he did see an attack - the one that took place in the street. But this wasn't the knife attack. The bloodflow pattern observed by the medical men renders this an absolute certainty.
Garry – you are very certain. I’m afraid i cannot and do not share that certainty.

Then I would encourage you to re-evaluate the evidence, Phil.

[Abby Normal]

Thanks, Jon.

Thanks Garry and Wicker for pointing it out for me. I had never heard that before.

[Phil H]

There is no need for me to re-evaluate the evidence, Garry, for two reasons:

a) I already did and arrived at a conclusion with which you disagree;

b) I do not rule out Stride as a Ripper victim, I simply do not lean so strongly in that direction as I once did. I'd say it was a 75% against situation.

I might equally as well turn around and suggest you re-evaluate the evidence. It is your certainty with which I disagree, not your right to draw any conclusions you wish. Reject mine though you will, mine are still evidentially based and as valid (on that basis) as any others

Old views on the Ripper have changed (frequently) and I suspect they will on Stride in due course.

Phil

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Hullo Phil

75% against sounds very reasonable. I might go 70%. Might not.

[GregBaron]

Purge your kidney's...

Hi all,

"The police authorities have received an important statement in reference to the Berner-street crime. It is to the effect that a man between 35 and 40 years of age, and of fair complexion, was seen to throw the murdered woman to the ground. It was thought by the person who witnessed this that it was a man and his wife quarrelling, and consequently no notice was taken of it."

Funny how wailing on the wife is considered Ok……….

Those with appropriate expertise draw complex maps to determine where the centre of Jack's patch was.

That would be the fine fellow called Colin Roberts with whom you are debating..

What is there that supports substantiates etc. Kidney being Strides killer? Does IS's description come close to Kidney? Somebody got something remotely firm? Not pro-"JTR" just tired of domestic with nothing solid to support it.

I don’t know who has or hasn’t perused but in a past Ripperologist Tom Wescott penned an impressive article called “Exonerating Michael Kidney”….If you’re a Kidney fan you may want to find it…


Greg

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Hullo GB

Not a Kidney fan. I won't remove him as a possibility though. There is little to support him killing Stride. I'm not willing to just chalk it up to Kidney to be done with it and exclude her as a potential "JTR" victim either. Tom's article was quite nise.