Was Stride Really a JtR Victim?

[Cogidubnus]

In the dark

You see this has always puzzled me...all these late night observations, like James Brown and PC Smith who saw so much. yet it was SO dark in the passage Diemschutz had to strike a match...somewhere there has to have been some light source of some kind....

It might not have stretched down to ground level, or into the darkest corners...but just how much was visible...and to which witnesses?

All the best

Dave

[lynn cates]

location

Hello Dave. Thanks.

"So if it's as dark as that Lynn. how can Leon Goldstein be so clearly seen?"

Is he not on the street when seen?

Cheers.
LC

[Cogidubnus]

Is Fanny's candle illuminating the whole East End?

Is he not on the street when seen?

Yes Lynn...so how brightly lit is the street? So light doesn't penetrate to the darkest corners of Dutfields Yard...or perhaps to ground level...so just what light is there and how bright? Is it really THAT much darker five feet into Dutfields than out on the pavement? If it is, for there to be contrast, there surely has to be a light source?

All the best

Dave

[Paddy]

Evening News 1st October 1888

Like this mans statement (he sure saw a lot considering it was dark)

Abraham Hoshberg
Informant.
Resident of 28 Berner Street. Following the murder of Elizabeth Stride, he gave a statement to the press:

Yes; I was one of those who first saw the murdered woman. It was about a quarter to one o'clock, I should think, when I heard a policeman's whistle blown, and came down to see what was the matter. In the gateway two or three people had collected, and when I got there I saw a short, dark young woman lying on the ground with a gash between four and five inches long in her throat. I should say she was from 25 to 28 years of age. Her head was towards the north wall, against which she was lying. She had a black dress on, with a bunch of flowers pinned on the breast. In her hand there was a little piece of paper containing five or six cachous. The body was found by a man whose name I do not know - a man who goes out with a pony and barrow, and lives up the archway, where he was going, I believe, to put up his barrow on coming home from market. He thought it was his wife at first, but when he found her safe at home he got a candle and found this woman. He never touched it till the doctors had been sent for.

Pat..................

[Cogidubnus]

Absolutely Pat...thanks!

All the best

Dave

[Michael W Richards]

Like this mans statement (he sure saw a lot considering it was dark)

Abraham Hoshberg
Informant.
Resident of 28 Berner Street. Following the murder of Elizabeth Stride, he gave a statement to the press:

Yes; I was one of those who first saw the murdered woman. It was about a quarter to one o'clock, I should think, when I heard a policeman's whistle blown, and came down to see what was the matter. In the gateway two or three people had collected, and when I got there I saw a short, dark young woman lying on the ground with a gash between four and five inches long in her throat. I should say she was from 25 to 28 years of age. Her head was towards the north wall, against which she was lying. She had a black dress on, with a bunch of flowers pinned on the breast. In her hand there was a little piece of paper containing five or six cachous. The body was found by a man whose name I do not know - a man who goes out with a pony and barrow, and lives up the archway, where he was going, I believe, to put up his barrow on coming home from market. He thought it was his wife at first, but when he found her safe at home he got a candle and found this woman. He never touched it till the doctors had been sent for.

Pat..................

Hi Paddy,

Although the above has approximation errors...i.e. Liz Strides approximate age,...there are some interesting points in the quote.

For one, the time, as I emboldened. And secondly, he doesnt seem to know who Louis Diemshitz is...and yet he is the steward of the club. That seems to indicate that if he was a member he wasnt very familiar with the club hierarchy, or...he was a guest that night for the meeting and hung around afterward.

In any case, it is clear to at least myself that he would have no reason to modify his statement based on any allegiance to the club, or to Louis. Whereas Louis and Eagle would have to consider how this event was portrayed...they are the steward and the speaker...and have a stake in what happens to the club.

Cheers.

[The Good Michael]

Abraham Hoshberg
Informant.
Resident of 28 Berner Street. Following the murder of Elizabeth Stride, he gave a statement to the press:

Yes; I was one of those who first saw the murdered woman. It was about a quarter to one o'clock, I should think, when I heard a policeman's whistle blown, and came down to see what was the matter. In the gateway two or three people had collected, and when I got there I saw a short, dark young woman lying on the ground with a gash between four and five inches long in her throat. I should say she was from 25 to 28 years of age. Her head was towards the north wall, against which she was lying. She had a black dress on, with a bunch of flowers pinned on the breast. In her hand there was a little piece of paper containing five or six cachous. The body was found by a man whose name I do not know - a man who goes out with a pony and barrow, and lives up the archway, where he was going, I believe, to put up his barrow on coming home from market. He thought it was his wife at first, but when he found her safe at home he got a candle and found this woman. He never touched it till the doctors had been sent for.

If true, it makes Hutchinson seem more credible, and Hutchinson had way more time to look. This also shows that, again if true, Diemschitz was above board.

Mike

[lynn cates]

Behold, the Lamb.

Hello Dave. Thanks.

"Yes Lynn...so how brightly lit is the street? So light doesn't penetrate to the darkest corners of Dutfields Yard...or perhaps to ground level...so just what light is there and how bright? Is it really THAT much darker five feet into Dutfields than out on the pavement? If it is, for there to be contrast, there surely has to be a light source?"

If I recall the statement at inquest by Lamb, there were 4 gas lamps on Berner between Commercial and Fairclough.

But Wess noted how dark the passage was where Liz was killed.

Cheers.
LC

[Cogidubnus]

If true, it makes Hutchinson seem more credible, and Hutchinson had way more time to look. This also shows that, again if true, Diemschitz was above board.

Hi Mike

Hutchinson? Spooner perhaps?

All the best

Dave

[Cogidubnus]

For one, the time, as I emboldened. And secondly, he doesnt seem to know who Louis Diemshitz is...and yet he is the steward of the club. That seems to indicate that if he was a member he wasnt very familiar with the club hierarchy, or...he was a guest that night for the meeting and hung around afterward.

In any case, it is clear to at least myself that he would have no reason to modify his statement based on any allegiance to the club, or to Louis. Whereas Louis and Eagle would have to consider how this event was portrayed...they are the steward and the speaker...and have a stake in what happens to the club.

Hi Mike

It doesn't actually say he was in the club...just that he was a resident of 28 Berner Street and came down to see what all the noise was about...He could have meant down, as in down from his own upstairs...or down as in down the road...I suppose he could have been inside the club at the time but it doesn't say so...

What it does say though is that there was enough light at that time to see what was going on...spilling from an open door or window perhaps?

All the best

Dave

[The Good Michael]

Hi Mike

Hutchinson? Spooner perhaps?

No Dave. I was referring to G 'Topping' Hutchinson whose narrative seems too detailed, but when I see stuff like this I think, hmmm, maybe.

Mike

[DVV]

Abraham Hoshberg could see through the paper and count the cachous.

[Cogidubnus]

Maybe he was still there when the cachous were unwrapped...the police don't seem to have contained/cleared the crime scenes in the fashion that we'd today expect, and let all sorts of slaughterers, commercial travellers, horseminders and nocturnal choristers hang around!

All the best

Dave

[Ben]

Hoshberg had considerably more time to look at the stationary form of Stride than Hutchinson had to glimpse the more "detailed" physical particulars of Astrakhan as the latter allegedly walked past a gas lamp.

Not that Horshberg's description is all that detailed.

[Michael W Richards]

Hoshberg had considerably more time to look at the stationary form of Stride than Hutchinson had to glimpse the more "detailed" physical particulars of Astrakhan as the latter allegedly walked past a gas lamp.

Not that Horshberg's description is all that detailed.

I do think its interesting though Ben that he and Isaac K and Spooner, (if one approximates his maneuvering to his final stop outside the Beehive with his girl at about 30 minutes, with 10 minutes standing there), all stated that same night that they were alerted to the body at least 15 minutes before Louis Diemshitz says he even arrived.

Louis arrives home to find a dead woman lying in the passageway....no issues there, he runs inside for some help....again, no problem,.....he comes back outside and others come down to see what has happened. They talk about it amongst themselves, Louis is thinking of what he needs to do...get police, keep people from touching anything...after some thinking he and Isaac[s] head out for help, as does Eagle.

Ask yourself......just how long did that action take? We then hear from Johnson that he arrived at 10 after 1. They did all that upon Louis's discovery, then sought help by the police, met Spooner, and were still back by the body in around 5 or 6 minutes? Not likely.

If Isaac K says he left alone at Louis's insistence by 12:45, then who is the Isaac[s] that left with Louis? Why dont we hear about Isaac K being sent out from Louis or Eagle, because if he told the truth, then we have at least 1 more member out seeking help than we are told was the case.

Cheers Ben, all the best.