Was Stride Really a JtR Victim?

[ukranianphil]

Firstly, where is the evidence that all the women seen were stride?

Secondly, where is the evidence that she was with different men each time?

I still see no evidence that she entered the Club at all - the yard once maybe.

Phil

first. they all identified stride at th mortuary.
second. all men were different discriptions. [hence different men]
Third. she must have known about the yard being a dark place, where else would she go
for privicy?
im using my phone on a bus, so sorry for any mistakes.

[DRoy]

UkranianPhil,

I KNOW EYE WITNESS ACCOUNTS CAN BE DOGGY, but un less he went home, grew three inches, shaved and changed his clothes in an hour and a half, they would have to be different men.

Okay that was my first question. What about the rest? I can add more if you like.

Cheers
DRoy

[lynn cates]

Eygle eyes

Hello (again) Phil.

"she must have been a very chatty woman"

Possibly. And Eygle must have been blind since he did not see Schwartz.

Cheers.
LC

[Phil H]

Firstly, where is the evidence that all the women seen were stride?

Secondly, where is the evidence that she was with different men each time?

I still see no evidence that she entered the Club at all - the yard once maybe.

Phil

[ukranianphil]

Ukranianphil,



Is it possible she was seen with the same man? Is it possible she was being propositioned because she was a female who happened to be out late at night? Is it possible witnesses thought it was Stride when it wasn't? Is it possible she met up with friends that happened to be men?

I'm not saying she was or wasn't a prostitute but the way you worded things make it sound as if you are quoting evidence which I personally don't think it is. Much of your other comments at least started off with "I think" which should have applied to the three items I quoted you on.

Cheers
DRoy

I KNOW EYE WITNESS ACCOUNTS CAN BE DOGGY, but un less he went home, grew three inches, shaved and changed his clothes in an hour and a half, they would have to be different men.

[lynn cates]

assumptions

Hello Phil.

"She had several clients.?

Really? How do we know that?

"The man P.C. Smith saw at 11:30pm standing directly across form the club."

He was a client? Again, we have no knowledge of such.

"She used the club a couple of times that night."

When? Surely not at the time "she" were spotted by those august witnesses? Nor yet when any club members were in the yard?

Cheers.
LC

[ukranianphil]

LIZ STRIDES INQUEST.
Dr. phillips,' it has come to my conclusion that the deceased was seized by the shoulders, placed on the ground, and the perpetrator was on her right side when he inflicted the cuts.

Dr.Blackwell. There were some marks on the shoulders. These were not regular bruises,
there were no abrasions on the skin'.
Juryman.- "do you know how these marks were caused'?
Dr.Blackwell 'by two hands pressing on the shoulder'

source: The ultimate Jack the ripper source book. page 182.
That's what schwarts saw happen to stride at 12:45.

[DRoy]

Ukranianphil,

11:00pm best and gardner see her outsde bricklayers arms, kissing a man.
11:45am. william marshall saw her near 68 berner street with a man
12:10am. william west notices the gates of the club open.
12:30am. p.c. smith sees her with a man opposite the club
12:45am. maurice Eagle left the club, the doors are closed.
12:45am. schwarts sees her outside club being attacked. doors open.
she must have been a very chatty woman, if she was not soliciting.

Is it possible she was seen with the same man? Is it possible she was being propositioned because she was a female who happened to be out late at night? Is it possible witnesses thought it was Stride when it wasn't? Is it possible she met up with friends that happened to be men?

I'm not saying she was or wasn't a prostitute but the way you worded things make it sound as if you are quoting evidence which I personally don't think it is. Much of your other comments at least started off with "I think" which should have applied to the three items I quoted you on.

Cheers
DRoy

[ukranianphil]

11:00pm best and gardner see her outsde bricklayers arms, kissing a man.
11:45am. william marshall saw her near 68 berner street with a man
12:10am. william west notices the gates of the club open.
12:30am. p.c. smith sees her with a man opposite the club
12:45am. maurice Eagle left the club, the doors are closed.
12:45am. schwarts sees her outside club being attacked. doors open.
she must have been a very chatty woman, if she was not soliciting.

[Phil H]

There seems to be a trend on Casebook at the moment for inventing facts.

Re Liz Stride:

was see plying her trade in Berner street, since 11pm... she had several clients ...She used the club a couple of times that night.

As far as i know there is NO indication that Stride was soliciting that night - on the contrary all the evidence seems to suggest she was on a "date" and took particular care with her appearance.

Where is the evidence she had "clients" - a woman (perhaps several women) were seen with men in the area and some sighting may have been of stride, but that goes too far.

Where is any evidence she "used" the Club a couple of times? What does that statement mean - she went inside? Or simply made use of the courtyard?

I think translation may be the problem here and I'll give the poster the benefit of the doubt, but particular care is needed in accurate representation of the facts where the murder of Stride is increasingly controversial.

Phil

[curious4]

Robbery

Hello Ukranianphil,

There is always a possibility that this was a robbery, Many people think Liz' murder was different. And I agree with you that the press were eager for this to be another JTR murder. The police, however, were sure that it was. There is a lot of material missing, sadly, from the police files, so we can't really know if there was other evidence we don't know about which convinced the police that it was another JTR murder.

You are in good company, many of the "heavyweights" on these boards don't believe Jack was her killer either.

Best wishes,
C4

[DRoy]

Ukranianphil,

She was see plying her trade in Berner street...

she had several clients.

She used the club a couple of times that night.

Really? How was she plying her trade? What trade would that be? Do you mean talking to a man? Several clients? Can I assume you mean she talked to more than one man? Who saw her 'using the club'?

None of this should lead to a conclusion she was 'working'.

Cheers
DRoy

[ukranianphil]

I have been reading with interest the comments on this thread, and i think
schwartz did indeed see Elizabeth stride, get murdered,, i think also the star exagerated things a little, (good points about interpreting) things could have got lost in translation.
I think that Liz was a victim of a robbery. She was see plying her trade in Berner street, since 11pm, and when the police found her; No money was on her. What happened to her earnings?
she had several clients.
The man P.C. Smith saw at 11:30pm standing directly across form the club.. She used the club a couple of times that night. so, i recon that when she went in with the bloke schwartz saw, he was waiting for her, and attacked her for her money.
he panicked when he saw schwartz and called out 'lipskey'when he noticed schwarts and schwarts ran. He slit her throat because he was recognised, and got away.
I think the press were too quick to class this as a ripper case, as was Dr.Bond. The ress wanted to write it up, because there was another murder that night, a woman got her throat cut by her husband, so they could no tie that one in, and went all out to make up this as a ripper victim.

[DRoy]

Jon & C4,

Sounds very reasonable. I wonder how much the interpreter translated things that weren't easily translated?

Perhaps in a follow-up interview with Schwartz, a more 'respectable' or decorated translator interpreted things quite different than the first interview. Lost in translation could have played a big part in Schwartz not testifying.

Cheers
DRoy

[curious4]

Lost in translation

Hello,

Yes, thanks, often happens, can't quite think of the word and take the nearest equivalent. Happens to the best of us.

Best wishes
C4