Was Stride Really a JtR Victim?

[GregBaron]

How many peaks per Parish...

Police wrote the following (at a much later date) which I find interesting.


Pat..........................

Hi Paddy,

In general Jews aren't big drinkers. Feel free to correct me my Jewish colleagues. It's a cultural thing I suppose. Perhaps it's best to be on one's toes when persecution is rampant..........of course this doesn't explain the Irish.....

Think peaked cap. Most of the witnesses that night describe a man wearing a peaked cap, including Schwartz the Stride witness and Lawende the Eddowes witness.
It seals the deal for me that both stride and eddowes were killed by the same man- the ripper was wearing a cap with a peak that night.

Abby's a peaked cap man and understandably so. The question is, how many
ordinary blokes wore such caps on a typical evening in Whitechapel...?

The killers MO for the other murders was quick, without reported arguments and a means to an end. Strides' however seemed an anger murder.

Stride was also dispatched quickly. This is a ripper MO. Most domestics
are drawn out affairs meant to prolong suffering....this was anything but...
I wonder how many Whitechapel men could lie a victim down and slit a throat with such swift skill.........?


Greg

[Abby Normal]

The killers MO for the other murders was quick, without reported arguments and a means to an end. Strides' however seemed an anger murder.

I have always thought that Strides murder was connected, because the police seemed so sure. Packers statement of the man living in the next street fitted Kosminski's brother (and possibly Kosminski) living in Providence street.
In theory he could have been returning to his home and found Liz and was very angry with her for some reason. Maybe still hanging around after refusing his advances earlier?

However you all put up some good points and I am swayed slightly.

Another possible reason being, once he had murdered her and the witness had run off (possibly to get police) the best place to go would be into the club and mingle.
However if he did, the fact that all club members were detained there and checked, would not allow him time to go off to Mitre square.

I checked out MEPO 3 /140 and it mentions Schwartz's statement was presented at the inquest, but doesn't mention him being there in person.

I have just realised I am making the assumption that the murderer was Jewish. However Anderson and Swanson thought this too !

Unfortunately just one of many possibilities !
Pat...................

Hi Paddy
Think peaked cap. Most of the witnesses that night describe a man wearing a peaked cap, including Schwartz the Stride witness and Lawende the Eddowes witness.
It seals the deal for me that both stride and eddowes were killed by the same man- the ripper was wearing a cap with a peak that night.

[Paddy]

Booths police diarys

Police wrote the following (at a much later date) which I find interesting.


Pat..........................

[Paddy]

Was she a victim?

The killers MO for the other murders was quick, without reported arguments and a means to an end. Strides' however seemed an anger murder.

I have always thought that Strides murder was connected, because the police seemed so sure. Packers statement of the man living in the next street fitted Kosminski's brother (and possibly Kosminski) living in Providence street.
In theory he could have been returning to his home and found Liz and was very angry with her for some reason. Maybe still hanging around after refusing his advances earlier?

However you all put up some good points and I am swayed slightly.

Another possible reason being, once he had murdered her and the witness had run off (possibly to get police) the best place to go would be into the club and mingle.
However if he did, the fact that all club members were detained there and checked, would not allow him time to go off to Mitre square.

I checked out MEPO 3 /140 and it mentions Schwartz's statement was presented at the inquest, but doesn't mention him being there in person.

I have just realised I am making the assumption that the murderer was Jewish. However Anderson and Swanson thought this too !

Unfortunately just one of many possibilities !
Pat...................

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Hullo GB

Not a Kidney fan. I won't remove him as a possibility though. There is little to support him killing Stride. I'm not willing to just chalk it up to Kidney to be done with it and exclude her as a potential "JTR" victim either. Tom's article was quite nise.

[GregBaron]

Purge your kidney's...

Hi all,

"The police authorities have received an important statement in reference to the Berner-street crime. It is to the effect that a man between 35 and 40 years of age, and of fair complexion, was seen to throw the murdered woman to the ground. It was thought by the person who witnessed this that it was a man and his wife quarrelling, and consequently no notice was taken of it."

Funny how wailing on the wife is considered Ok……….

Those with appropriate expertise draw complex maps to determine where the centre of Jack's patch was.

That would be the fine fellow called Colin Roberts with whom you are debating..

What is there that supports substantiates etc. Kidney being Strides killer? Does IS's description come close to Kidney? Somebody got something remotely firm? Not pro-"JTR" just tired of domestic with nothing solid to support it.

I don’t know who has or hasn’t perused but in a past Ripperologist Tom Wescott penned an impressive article called “Exonerating Michael Kidney”….If you’re a Kidney fan you may want to find it…


Greg

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Hullo Phil

75% against sounds very reasonable. I might go 70%. Might not.

[Phil H]

There is no need for me to re-evaluate the evidence, Garry, for two reasons:

a) I already did and arrived at a conclusion with which you disagree;

b) I do not rule out Stride as a Ripper victim, I simply do not lean so strongly in that direction as I once did. I'd say it was a 75% against situation.

I might equally as well turn around and suggest you re-evaluate the evidence. It is your certainty with which I disagree, not your right to draw any conclusions you wish. Reject mine though you will, mine are still evidentially based and as valid (on that basis) as any others

Old views on the Ripper have changed (frequently) and I suspect they will on Stride in due course.

Phil

[Abby Normal]

Thanks, Jon.

Thanks Garry and Wicker for pointing it out for me. I had never heard that before.

[Garry Wroe]

If Schwartz was telling the truth, Phil, he did see an attack - the one that took place in the street. But this wasn't the knife attack. The bloodflow pattern observed by the medical men renders this an absolute certainty.
Garry – you are very certain. I’m afraid i cannot and do not share that certainty.

Then I would encourage you to re-evaluate the evidence, Phil.

[Garry Wroe]

We all have our gut feelings and we shouldn't be hesitant to voice them in public. But I would argue that there could be little to any basis for such conviction, in this particular instance.

David Canter has done some work in this very area, Colin, He concluded that rivers, railway lines, buildings, roads and suchlike do indeed act as psychological boundaries. His contention, I believe, was that the Whitechapel Road would have assumed just such a boundary in the mind of the killer.

[Garry Wroe]

There was this partial report in the Echo, Oct 1st, but as Garry said, I'm sure it appeared elsewhere.

Thanks, Jon.

[Garry Wroe]

Which would point to the MO of the ripper then right? The victim is incapacitated first, laid on the ground and then throat cut?

No, Abby. Nothing about the Stride killing is consistent with the Ripper's established mode of operation.

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Hullo!

What is there that supports substantiates etc. Kidney being Strides killer? Does IS's description come close to Kidney? Somebody got something remotely firm? Not pro-"JTR" just tired of domestic with nothing solid to support it.

[Phil H]

If Schwartz was telling the truth, Phil, he did see an attack - the one that took place in the street. But this wasn't the knife attack. The bloodflow pattern observed by the medical men renders this an absolute certainty.
Garry – you are very certain. I’m afraid i cannot and do not share that certainty.

Kidney was cleared by the police as a suspect. And does anyone really believe that a man who killed his lover would show up at a police station and emotionally complain about what a bad job they did? C'mon.
Kidney didn't do it.

If that’s your approach to evidence, Abby, you are frankly welcome to it. I’ll question, reason and discuss any and every point if need be. Resting on the logic of 120 odd years has got us nowhere – original research (above all) and re-thinking everything we know are in my view the two approaches that MIGHT just take us forward.

As with Garry’s point above, I regret I cannot share your certainty.

Phil