Was Stride Really a JtR Victim?

[Paddy]

Evening News 1st October 1888

Like this mans statement (he sure saw a lot considering it was dark)

Abraham Hoshberg
Informant.
Resident of 28 Berner Street. Following the murder of Elizabeth Stride, he gave a statement to the press:

Yes; I was one of those who first saw the murdered woman. It was about a quarter to one o'clock, I should think, when I heard a policeman's whistle blown, and came down to see what was the matter. In the gateway two or three people had collected, and when I got there I saw a short, dark young woman lying on the ground with a gash between four and five inches long in her throat. I should say she was from 25 to 28 years of age. Her head was towards the north wall, against which she was lying. She had a black dress on, with a bunch of flowers pinned on the breast. In her hand there was a little piece of paper containing five or six cachous. The body was found by a man whose name I do not know - a man who goes out with a pony and barrow, and lives up the archway, where he was going, I believe, to put up his barrow on coming home from market. He thought it was his wife at first, but when he found her safe at home he got a candle and found this woman. He never touched it till the doctors had been sent for.

Pat..................

[Cogidubnus]

Is Fanny's candle illuminating the whole East End?

Is he not on the street when seen?

Yes Lynn...so how brightly lit is the street? So light doesn't penetrate to the darkest corners of Dutfields Yard...or perhaps to ground level...so just what light is there and how bright? Is it really THAT much darker five feet into Dutfields than out on the pavement? If it is, for there to be contrast, there surely has to be a light source?

All the best

Dave

[lynn cates]

location

Hello Dave. Thanks.

"So if it's as dark as that Lynn. how can Leon Goldstein be so clearly seen?"

Is he not on the street when seen?

Cheers.
LC

[Cogidubnus]

In the dark

You see this has always puzzled me...all these late night observations, like James Brown and PC Smith who saw so much. yet it was SO dark in the passage Diemschutz had to strike a match...somewhere there has to have been some light source of some kind....

It might not have stretched down to ground level, or into the darkest corners...but just how much was visible...and to which witnesses?

All the best

Dave

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Dave just looked at page 157.

The Star reported..
"The police have arrested one man answering the description the Hungarian furnishes. The prisoner has not been charged, but is held for enquiries to be made.The truth of the mans statement is not wholly accepted"

The next day they reported..
"In the matter of the Hungarian who said he saw the struggle between a man and a woman in the passage where the Stride body was afterwards found, the Leman-street police have reason to doubt the truth of the story"

I dont know if the same reporter wrote both these but its my feeling that the second report is a mistaken interpretation of the first one.

Whats your take on it?
Pat...................

Hi Pat

But the police went on believing the Schwartz account was true until at least November (same source)...

All the best

Dave

[Cogidubnus]

So if it's as dark as that Lynn. how can Leon Goldstein be so clearly seen? (something admitted by both parties)...or does the darkness apply only at the end of Diemschutz's whip?

All the best

Dave

[Paddy]

Hi Jon,
A mistake by the same newspaper?
It was their own story, what could they confuse it with?

Between the first report, where the doubt is of the arrested mans statement
and the second report where the doubt is of Schwartz's statement.

Pat......................

[Wickerman]

Hi Dave just looked at page 157.

The Star reported..
"The police have arrested one man answering the description the Hungarian furnishes. The prisoner has not been charged, but is held for enquiries to be made.The truth of the mans statement is not wholly accepted"

The next day they reported..
"In the matter of the Hungarian who said he saw the struggle between a man and a woman in the passage where the Stride body was afterwards found, the Leman-street police have reason to doubt the truth of the story"

I dont know if the same reporter wrote both these but its my feeling that the second report is a mistaken interpretation of the first one.

Whats your take on it?
Pat...................

A mistake by the same newspaper?
It was their own story, what could they confuse it with?

[Paddy]

Jack the Ripper the Facts (page 157)

Hi Dave just looked at page 157.

The Star reported..
"The police have arrested one man answering the description the Hungarian furnishes. The prisoner has not been charged, but is held for enquiries to be made.The truth of the mans statement is not wholly accepted"

The next day they reported..
"In the matter of the Hungarian who said he saw the struggle between a man and a woman in the passage where the Stride body was afterwards found, the Leman-street police have reason to doubt the truth of the story"

I dont know if the same reporter wrote both these but its my feeling that the second report is a mistaken interpretation of the first one.

Whats your take on it?
Pat...................

[lynn cates]

upstairs/downstairs

Hello Dave. Thanks.

Only the upstairs rooms.

Cheers.
LC

[Cogidubnus]

Was there no lighting at all from the kitchen or the printing office?

Dave

[lynn cates]

considerations

Hello Dave.

"it is quite possible that crossing the road on the diagonal, Schwartz looked back and saw Liz being thrown down IN THE YARD...ie maybe what he witnessed was part of the murder"

Was it possible to see into the yard, given the lighting?

If he had, how would her body have lain?

Cheers.
LC

[Cogidubnus]

Which clearly wasn't the case, Caz. Stride was roughed up on the street. This must have been so otherwise Schwartz could not have seen what he saw whilst approaching the stableyard gates on the same side of the street. Yet the murder took place some five feet inside the yard. Since the bloodflow from Stride's throat wound confirms that the incision was inflicted where the body was discovered, it could not have been sustained immediately after the street assault.

All of which would appear to indicate that Stride entered the yard consensually with her killer. To repeat a point I made over on the Forum some months ago: ‘Stride was fully aware that a mutilation murderer was stalking the district and presumably had no desire to become a victim herself. One would therefore assume that she would have raised the alarm at the first hint of danger, and yet she emitted no more than a mild protestation whilst under attack.

Hi Garry

Sorry to be so late commenting, but this issue is actually addressed in Paul Begg's excellent "JtR The Facts" (pages 156/157)...According to the Star's own account of Schwartz's testimony, (in which Pipeman becomes Daggerman - possibly a mistranslation...or possibly Pipeman was), Schwartz walked up Berners from Commercial Road, until he reached Dutfields Yard...but upon seeing the dispute he then crossed to the other side of the street...

"Before he had gone many yards, however, he heard the sound of a quarrel, and turned back to learn what was the matter"

The Star also claims that Schwartz witnessed BS man pushing Stride INTO the passage, as opposed to onto the pavement...

So, if the version in The Star is to be believed, (and who is to say whether the Met or The Star had the best translator?), it is quite possible that crossing the road on the diagonal, Schwartz looked back and saw Liz being thrown down IN THE YARD...ie maybe what he witnessed was part of the murder...the conclusions on Pages 157/158 regarding the validity of Schwartz's story are also interesting...

I appreciate, incidentally, I'm quoting "second-hand", but I don't want to be seen as trying to claim credit for something someone else has spotted!

All the best

Dave

[Jon Guy]

Hi Garry

Possibly, Jon, but unlikely in my view..

The reasons I don`t think he was aware he was been watched are that Schwartz was a distance behind him, and BS Man only shouted at him once Schwartz drew level and crossed the road, which will be the time he clocked him for the first time na dfelt the need to hurl abuse.

Interestingly, though, Jon, he was neither manhandling Eddowes nor hurling racial insults at Lawende and company.

But wasn`t that because he could see the three men approaching before he had began to assault Eddowes. He also need to get her down the alley, whereas Stride was already standing in the dark gateway so he could just push her back out of sight of the street.
He was certainly manhandling Eddowes once the three had passed and he had maneovered her from under the lamp to down the passage.

Sutcliffe said a lot of things, Jon. He also happened to be in possession of a hammer and knives when provoked by these olfactory triggers - to say nothing of wearing a pair of woolen tights especially modified to allow him to masturbate in more comfort over the dead or dying bodies of his victims. He also attacked and attempted to kill a fourteen year old on her way home from school. Presumably she'd just finished a gym class and was smelling a little ripe at the time. Like I said, Jon, Sutcliffe said a lot of things, mostly in an attempt to justify the unjustifiable.

Just because he was prepared with his weird underwear and weapons he was still calm and together whilst he drove around picking up girls, and needed to remain so whilst persuading them to get out of the car into the back seat or to lie on the grass. Some of them didn`t want to do this, yet he persuaded them. He only "lost it" at the moment he had them where he wanted
The girls who stank of sweat and perfume were the prostitutes who climbed into his car.
That`s the difference between them and us Garry.

[Garry Wroe]

But BS Man was not aware of the onlooker until after he had been throwing her about.

Possibly, Jon, but unlikely in my view.

Church Passage Man had three men walking in his direction, and he was standing so it would be difficult to notice if he was under the influence.

Interestingly, though, Jon, he was neither manhandling Eddowes nor hurling racial insults at Lawende and company.

Sutcliffe would tell the police of the anger that would suddenly well up in him when triggered, in that instance, the combination of his passenger`s cheap perfume and sweat after he had picked the prostitute up.

Sutcliffe said a lot of things, Jon. He also happened to be in possession of a hammer and knives when provoked by these olfactory triggers - to say nothing of wearing a pair of woolen tights especially modified to allow him to masturbate in more comfort over the dead or dying bodies of his victims. He also attacked and attempted to kill a fourteen year old on her way home from school. Presumably she'd just finished a gym class and was smelling a little ripe at the time. Like I said, Jon, Sutcliffe said a lot of things, mostly in an attempt to justify the unjustifiable.