Sequence of comings & goings - Stride

[Prosector]

I agree with both those observations Frank. I think that in many ways the Stride killing is the closest we get to JTR. I think that both he and Stride were in the vicinity for at least half an hour, if not longer, before her demise and(if my theory is correct) he may even have been inside the Institute before that. Often the best alibi is to be seen in a locality in which you are already well known before or during the time of a crime. That way people think you're part of the furniture and assume that you wouldn't possibly have been there if you were the perpetrator. Also, it is not at all unusual for punters to show affection towards their prostitutes. In Victorian times (and even today) many of them married them.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I agree that Marshall was a reliable witness, Prospector. To me, he's also very usefull in the sense that, amongst others of course, his testimony shows that:
1. Stride had been in the neighbourhood for quite some time before she was killed
2. That the man/men she was seen with, treated her with a sort of affection (unlike something I would expect from a regular prostitute's punter) - in that he/they kissed her, gave her flowers, sweets and perhaps even grapes

What is it with me and maps?!

I've just looked at Marshall's Inquest testimony and he says that Stride was opposite number 68 ( which according to the map I've looked at was a pub) and between Christian Street and Boyd Street. I can see Boyd Street but where is Christian Street?

....

Plus, when asked by the Coroner: "Would they pass the club?" Marshall said:" They had done so."

How could he have known that they'd passed the club when earlier he'd said that she was standing talking to a man and that what drew his attention to them was "...her standing there some time, and he was kissing her." From 11.30 until 12.00 when he went inside. How could he have known which way they'd come?

[FrankO]

…and he prolly wanted to spoon 'er

Good one, NBFN, I like it!

[NotBlamedForNothing]

…the man/men she was seen with, treated her with a sort of affection (unlike something I would expect from a regular prostitute's punter) - in that he/they kissed her, gave her flowers, sweets and perhaps even grapes

…and he prolly wanted to spoon 'er

[FrankO]

What about William Marshall who apparently saw the couple at about 11.45pm? He always seems to me to have given the best description of the man that night. Fanny Mortimer troubles me because initially she claimed to have seen or heard nothing and only started remembering all the details like the 'ten inches of cold steel in her' after being interviewed by numerous reporters. The only alleged witnesses called to give evidence at the inquest were Smith, Marshall and Brown. It doesn't mean that the others were wrong or are not useful in terms of timings but those three seem to me to be the most reliable.

I agree that Marshall was a reliable witness, Prospector. To me, he's also very usefull in the sense that, amongst others of course, his testimony shows that:
1. Stride had been in the neighbourhood for quite some time before she was killed
2. That the man/men she was seen with, treated her with a sort of affection (unlike something I would expect from a regular prostitute's punter) - in that he/they kissed her, gave her flowers, sweets and perhaps even grapes

[FrankO]

Great work, Frank!

Thanks, Caz!

I've always thought that if Schwartz had invented what he claimed to see, he'd still have needed to be there at the right time, to know that no witnesses - such as a policeman - were around who could prove he was lying. What's more, if the police did manage to trace and eliminate Pipeman, he wasn't an invention, and he presumably confirmed the basics of the story.

I couldn't agree more.

All the best,
Frank

[caz]

Great work, Frank!

I've always thought that if Schwartz had invented what he claimed to see, he'd still have needed to be there at the right time, to know that no witnesses - such as a policeman - were around who could prove he was lying. What's more, if the police did manage to trace and eliminate Pipeman, he wasn't an invention, and he presumably confirmed the basics of the story.

Love,

Caz
X

[FrankO]

Hi Frank.

Some may notice that when we look at a sequence of events, a few 'myths' (posing as theories) are exploded.

Example: The 'Parcel-man' seen by PC Smith couldn't have been Wess leaving the print shop with a bunch of flyers, as we can see he left the club by the front door with his brother & another man long before 'Parcel-man' arrived on the scene.

We can also see which were the 'two Jews' who ran along Fairclough St. as I tried to impress on Michael - it was Diemschutz & Kozebrodski, confirmed by your analysis.

Good work, this analysis should be the basis for future studies of the activities in Berner St. that night.

Thanks for your additions & compliment, Jon!

I do notice you have not included Packer?, when we include his statement we can see it is confirmed by PC Smith, and regardless of estimates of the size of the newspaper parcel, it must have been the parcel of grapes.

I simply hadn't thought of him (yet), perhaps - unconsciously - because he changed his statement a couple of times. I'll have a look at him!

[FrankO]

Issac Kozebroski was interviewed that same night and said he was sent out "alone" by Louis or some other member, he also said it happened at 12:40. Louis did leave with someone named Issac[s], likely a surname, and they went out after 1.

As per the Woodford Times of 5 and the Illustrated Police News of 6 October, Kozebrodski was familiarly known as “Isaacs”. These 2 newspapers wrote that Diemshutz discovered Stride’s body at around 1 am and that after returning to the yard & having alerted people inside the club, he went running for a policeman together with Kozebrodski, familiarly known as Isaacs. Make of that what you will, Michael.

Whats being suggested here is that we should ignore all evidence that doesnt affirm what unsubstantiated and uncorroborated witnesses claimed.

I'm not doing anything of the sort, Michael. I just tried to make sense of the evidence and put all comings & goings in a sequence that does as little violence as possible to said evidence. It's just a starting point and I invited anyone who has something sensible to add or say about it to do just that.

Just after 1: Fanny hears a commotion, Louis and Issac[s] goes for help, Eagle goes another way to do the same. Issac K meets Eagle upon his return around 1:05.

It’s not quite clear what Kozebrodski/Isaacs does; it’s possible that he returns with Diemshutz & Spooner to the yard and only then runs with Eagle in the direction of Commercial Road to find a policeman, but also that he leaves Diemshutz & Spooner, goes up Christian Street or Batty Street and, together with Eagle, finds Lamb. Since, according to Eagle’s own statement versions, he seems to have left for a policeman very shortly after Diemshutz & Kozebrodski/Isaacs left the yard in search of a policeman, the latter possibility seems more likely. That Kozebrodski only meets Eagle upon his return is contradicted by Lamb’s testimony, as he clearly stated that he 2 men came running towards him.

[DJA]

Louis Hagens was probably Pipeman.

Schwartz crossed the road towards the Board School to avoid BS Man.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Nelson Beer House,46 Berner Street.
Have the proprietors name somewhere,or you could use the search function ..... I haven't woken up yet.

Cheers Dave
Schwartz said that Pipeman was on the opposite side of the road to BS man though he only mentions the pub in the Star?

[DJA]

Nelson Beer House,46 Berner Street.
Have the proprietors name somewhere,or you could use the search function ..... I haven't woken up yet.

[Herlock Sholmes]

For my own info what was the name of the pub that Pipeman was supposed to have come from and what street number was it?

[Prosector]

What about William Marshall who apparently saw the couple at about 11.45pm? He always seems to me to have given the best description of the man that night. Fanny Mortimer troubles me because initially she claimed to have seen or heard nothing and only started remembering all the details like the 'ten inches of cold steel in her' after being interviewed by numerous reporters. The only alleged witnesses called to give evidence at the inquest were Smith, Marshall and Brown. It doesn't mean that the others were wrong or are not useful in terms of timings but those three seem to me to be the most reliable.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Issac Kozebroski was interviewed that same night and said he was sent out "alone" by Louis or some other member, he also said it happened at 12:40. Louis did leave with someone named Issac[s], likely a surname, and they went out after 1.

Whats being suggested here is that we should ignore all evidence that doesnt affirm what unsubstantiated and uncorroborated witnesses claimed. Instead of using the majority of accounts, that directly dispute those unsubstantiated ones, and incorporate events and sounds that were neither seen nor heard by witnesses who could do both during that last half hour.

12:30 Lave at the gates, Fanny begins intermittent visits to her door. A Young couple is seen.
Disputed by what she told the EN reporter.
12:35: Stride seen with Parcel Man by Smith Suggesting that Smith was correct on timing and Mortimer was wrong.
12:40: Club attendees alerted to body, Louis is there, Issac K is told to go for help, as well as 2 as yet unidentified Jews, who meet Spooner and return.
12:40 Eagle arrives back, Lave is still at the gates. Neither see anything.
12:45:Brown sees young couple by School
You forgot Schwartz.
12:50: Fanny goes to her door to stand there for 10 minutes.
Or, according to the EN, she was back inside.
12:55: She estimates she sees Goldstein walk past the gates, look in, and hurry along at about 12:55
As Goldstein gives no time, and as the EN report give her as going back inside at around 12.45 or just before, she could have seen him at 12.44.
1:00am: Louis claims he arrives
Just after 1: Fanny hears a commotion
You've omitted that she heard a horse and cart (Diemschutz)
, Louis and Issac[s] goes for help, Eagle goes another way to do the same. Issac K meets Eagle upon his return around 1:05.

Thats a readers digest overview. No Israel Schwartz, no Louis and Issac K running out together, the body is known of at around 12:40 by multiple sources, no BSM or Pipeman,...the only people seen or heard during that last 25 minutes are the young couple and Goldstein. The street was essentially deserted.

We get nowhere by eliminating the inconvenient in favour of a conspiracy for which there is no solid evidence.

Who are these 'witnesses' who claimed that the body was discovered earlier and couldn't they have been wrong?

Are you suggesting that Schwartz lied to out himself at the scene of a murder when he wasn't there?