Diemschutz arrival

[harry]

Lynn,
In answer to your post 65,the only evidence we have is that there was an intent to kill Stride.No one can say what w as intended afterwards.The timings submitted by witnesses,do however allow for an interuption by the arrival of Diemschutz.It is quite plausible,that after killing Stride,the killer would pause before continuing further activity.Perhaps the total darkness in the yard,as described by witnesses,was a hindrance,untill the eyes became accustomed to that darkness,and then Diemschutz turns up.

[lynn cates]

pressure

Hello Cris. Thanks for that. Yes, I noticed that both fists are clenched.

I wonder whether a clenched fist, due to pressure around the throat, would unclench as soon as the pressure is eased?

Cheers.
LC

[Hunter]

No. Frequently a feeling of hands to the throat would cause a clenching of the fist and the clenched fists would go up, in the direction of the neck. Try it.

"A clenched hand and, reaching for the throat, do not go together."

I would not characterise it as "reaching." Perhaps better is to refer to "a direction towards."

Watch the Zapruder film and President Kennedy's hands as he reacts to the first shot that hit him at the base of the neck.

[lynn cates]

re-enactment

Hello (again) Jon. In reading your reply to Mike, I am again reminded of my re-enactment. This might be helpful.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

not reaching

Hello Jon. Thanks.

"How would a clenched hand help protect the throat?"

It wouldn't. But I don't recall making a remark about protection.

"The hand would open would it not?"

No. Frequently a feeling of hands to the throat would cause a clenching of the fist and the clenched fists would go up, in the direction of the neck. Try it.

"A clenched hand and, reaching for the throat, do not go together."

I would not characterise it as "reaching." Perhaps better is to refer to "a direction towards."

"It must be one or the other, don't you think?"

No, I don't. But I WOULD agree if she were reaching to dislodge the hands (or in her case, scarf).

"If Stride was a Ripper victim she was incapacitated swiftly, giving her no time to respond, but where is the evidence?"

I don't think Liz was incapacitated. Instead, I think she was pulled off balance by her scarf (cf. my re-enactment).

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

"The mouth was slightly open. The deceased had round her neck a check silk scarf, the bow of which was turned to the left and pulled very tight."

And,...

"I formed the opinion that the murderer probably caught hold of the silk scarf, which was tight and knotted, and pulled the deceased backwards, cutting her throat in that way. The throat might have been cut as she was falling, or when she was on the ground."

The killer may have used her own scarf to choke her, the doctors do not appear to have allowed for that consideration.
I doubt you could pull someone backwards by their scarf without her yelping or crying out to some degree.
Perhaps she did, maybe the noise from the club drowned her out?

Rendering someone unconscious takes time, minutes as opposed to seconds. If the killer tried this after he threw her to the ground there would be mud across her back, because we do not read that this was so, he must have choked her while she was on her feet. We know her throat was not cut while she was on her feet because there was no blood across her shoulder or down her left side.

Therefore, Stride was on her side when her throat was cut, but she was on her feet when he choked her. Which is why she still held the cachous in her hand, and she could not reach for her own throat, the choke was swiftly done.

IF....she was indeed choked first this is potentially a Ripper crime (IMO), but where is the evidence?
Is it the scarf?

If the scarf had long tails from the bow, this would make it an ideal choking weapon.

Regards, Jon S.

[Wickerman]

Hello Jon. Thanks.

"we might also assume that if she was conscious she would have resisted the attack, thereby dropping the cachous."

Of course, with a movement towards the throat, the hands will involuntarily clench. Easy experiment to perform--if one is careful.

Cheers.
LC

How would a clenched hand help protect the throat? The hand would open would it not?, dropping anything it contained, if she reached for her throat.
I don't think she did.

A clenched hand and, reaching for the throat, do not go together. It must be one or the other, don't you think?
If Stride was a Ripper victim she was incapacitated swiftly, giving her no time to respond, but where is the evidence?

Regards, Jon S.

[Wickerman]

Do you think she was incapacitated before her throat was cut?

Are you serious?

[Michael W Richards]

Hello all,

An answer as to her state of consciousness may be within the medical opinion given at the Inquest;

"The mouth was slightly open. The deceased had round her neck a check silk scarf, the bow of which was turned to the left and pulled very tight."

And,...

"I formed the opinion that the murderer probably caught hold of the silk scarf, which was tight and knotted, and pulled the deceased backwards, cutting her throat in that way. The throat might have been cut as she was falling, or when she was on the ground."

To which was added;

"A hand might have been put on her nose and mouth? - Yes, and the cut on the throat was probably instantaneous."

The cutting of Liz Strides throat may have been done while she fell. The twisting of her scarf and the yank backwards cuts off her air and with a slight move out of the way the killer slices her throat as he positions her between himself and the wall, dropping her while doing so. She falls on her side, and she moves only her legs, drawing them into herself.

2 things pop out at me. 1, she is unable to call out or move, perhaps partially paralyzed by fear as well. And 2, no effort was made by her killer to move her at all,.. not onto her back, nor to open her clothing.

Blackwells estimates allow for a cut time close to 12:45, Spooner saw blood flowing when he says he arrived with the club men at the passageway. If the earliest cut time was correct, within a minute or two...remember, this physician is on the scene at 1:16,...then Spooners rough timing was roughly correct.

And that concurs with Kozebrodski's and Heschbergs same night accounts, to name club witnesses.

Best regards

[lynn cates]

position

Hello Neil.

"Initially looking at a murder as part of series is presumptive don't you think?

Looking at it from its individual perspective and then, if links occur, connecting is the correct procedure surely."

And THIS is my entire position.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

M O

Hello Edward (hope that's right). Can you tell me whence the MO? I thought an MO was visible from the evidence. This seems speculative to me.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

clench

Hello Jon. Thanks.

"we might also assume that if she was conscious she would have resisted the attack, thereby dropping the cachous."

Of course, with a movement towards the throat, the hands will involuntarily clench. Easy experiment to perform--if one is careful.

Cheers.
LC

[Lechmere]

Do you think she was incapacitated before her throat was cut?

[Monty]

Intially looking at a murder as part of series is presumptive don't you think?

Looking at it from its individual perspective and then, if link occur, connecting is the correct procedure surely.

I am no believer in Stride being in this series of murders. However, and Tom will testify to this as we have agrued back and forth over this subject for many years, I cannot catagorically rule her out. So with that in mind Ed, I do see and understand your point. I also think its a fair one to make.

And yes, no matter how slim the chances, the disturbing by Diemshitz (or anyone or anything) is possible without doubt. I cannot deny that.

However, I do feel the evidence points to Strides killer just cut her throat and ran. And though I am against her inclusion, I do accept that its also possible that he could have gone on to Eddowes after.

Monty

[Lechmere]

As we are looking at a serial killer or potential serial killer and it is alleged that two attacks happened in quick succession, then I would suggest that it isn't good practice to look at the first attack in total isolation.

In any case why should it be so unlikely that the attacker was disturbed after he had made the throat wounds but before he had time to reposition the body to readily make cuts in the abdomen?

Although dimschutz seems the most likely interrupter it may not have been him - it could have been a prior event.