Diemschutz arrival

[Jon Guy]

Hi Lynn

Well, just for a start, if true, it negates Brown's story--and conversely.

Brown wasn`t in Berner St. He lived in Fairclough St and walked over to the shop on the corner of Fairclough St and Berner St. The couple he saw were against the Board school in Fairclough St. This other couple would later talk to Fanny Mortimer at the gates of the club following the murder.

Moreover, it was not corroborated.

Well, if no-one else saw Schwartz or the BS man assault, this is what we`d expect.

But then how an interruption?

The easiest way for me to answer this is to copy and paste a definition of the word interrupt and ask you to apply it to Schwartz`s police statement:

in·ter·rupt
   [v. in-tuh-ruhpt; n. in-tuh-ruhpt] Show IPA

verb (used with object)
1.
to cause or make a break in the continuity or uniformity of (a course, process, condition, etc.).

2.
to break off or cause to cease, as in the middle of something: He interrupted his work to answer the bell.

3.
to stop (a person) in the midst of doing or saying something, especially by an interjected remark: May I interrupt you to comment on your last remark?

verb (used without object)
4.
to cause a break or discontinuance; interfere with action or speech, especially by interjecting a remark: Please don't interrupt.

Well, the logician's reply is, "Dubito"--I doubt [it]. I have no reason to believe Israel's story.

How is that logical, Lynn?

[Jon Guy]

Hi Tom

Just between you and me, Schwartz and James Brown's statements do not 'negate each other', in spite of what Lynn says.

Agreed. Brown almost certainly saw the other couple, and he was on Fairclough St anyway.

As for reasons to suspect Schwartz' s statements, there are the newspaper reports that say the police made arrests upon his statements, the men were freed, and the police questions the validity of his statements and would not make further arrests until they had reason to believe Schwartz.

But, as you point out, the police reports we have give us no reason to disbelieve Schwartz.

I personally think he was associated with the Berner Street club, and this is what gave them pause in believe him.

Even though Schwartz is not mentioned at all in the Club`s very own Workers Friend article that covered the murder and the goings on that night ?

[lynn cates]

parallel

Hello Jon. Thanks.

""Didn`t he say that he arrived back at the club at exactly 1 am, he noticed the time at the shop at the top of the road."

Yes, he did.

"Therefore, it must have been about 12.56 on the Bakers clock, if he arrived at the club at exactly 1am."

Would he be aware of the exact time if the clock had read 12.56? To put it another way, would he be certain of a 4 minute interval between clock and yard?

Here may be an interesting parallel. Look at Blackwell's testimony. He gives 1.10 as BOTH summons time AND arrival time. (Evans and Skinner, p. 149)

I invite one to think of Dimshits in PRECISELY the same way.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Dos amigos.

Hello Miakaal. Thanks.

"Do you know who the "two men" were?"

Well, according to the AF article:

"In the meantime, there was quite a to-do going on inside the club, and everyone ran out into the yard. Dimshits, Eygel and Gilyarovsky ran to look for a policeman."

So 2 of those 3 seem likely.

Synchronisation of clocks? No, I don't believe so. And IF the Baker's clock was off by, say, 5 minutes, it might have been a good bit earlier.

Cheers.
LC

[Jon Guy]

Hi Lynn

Would he be aware of the exact time if the clock had read 12.56? To put it another way, would he be certain of a 4 minute interval between clock and yard?

If he said he arrived back at the club at exactly one o`clock, and we know he passed a clock at the top of the street, then I suppose the answer is yes.

Here may be an interesting parallel. Look at Blackwell's testimony. He gives 1.10 as BOTH summons time AND arrival time. (Evans and Skinner, p. 149)

I invite one to think of Dimshits in PRECISELY the same way.

Do all the newspaper reports of the inquest have Blackwell saying this?
The same thing occurs with Dr Llewellyn and his summons and arrival time.

[lynn cates]

interruption etc.

Hello (again) Jon. Thanks.

“Brown wasn`t in Berner St. He lived in Fairclough St and walked over to the shop on the corner of Fairclough St and Berner St. The couple he saw were against the Board school in Fairclough St. This other couple would later talk to Fanny Mortimer at the gates of the club following the murder.”

Indeed. And that is precisely why I doubt Brown’s story. Nevertheless, I find it difficult to believe he would not have heard the shout of “Lipski” (of course, he could not have heard Liz’s shouts as they were not loud shouts—heh-heh). So I naturally doubt Schwartz as well.

“Well, if no-one else saw Schwartz or the BS man assault, this is what we`d expect.”

Are you seriously suggesting there were people present just before and just after the fracas, but they all vanished just long enough for ONLY Schwartz to witness the event?

“The easiest way for me to answer this is to copy and paste a definition of the word interrupt and ask you to apply it to Schwartz`s police statement:

in•ter•rupt
   [v. in-tuh-ruhpt; n. in-tuh-ruhpt] Show IPA

verb (used with object)
1.
to cause or make a break in the continuity or uniformity of (a course, process, condition, etc.).

2.
to break off or cause to cease, as in the middle of something: He interrupted his work to answer the bell.

3.
to stop (a person) in the midst of doing or saying something, especially by an interjected remark: May I interrupt you to comment on your last remark?

verb (used without object)
4.
to cause a break or discontinuance; interfere with action or speech, especially by interjecting a remark: Please don't interrupt.’"

Although you don’t indicate which sense is intended, I shall attempt a reply.

1. Which continuity/uniformity is being broken? The quiet of the night? Very well.

2. What was being broken off? What was Liz in the middle of?

3. What was Liz doing or saying?

4. Break or discontinuance of what?

You see, I am not trying to be coy—far from it. If I understand the usual theory of interruption, it means something like, “The assailant was interrupted in his sequence which began with subduing and ended with mutilation.” In that case, it was the sequence that was being broken; was in the middle of; being done; discontinued.

“How is that logical, Lynn?"

You mean my doubt? Well, how are you using “logical”? Reasonable, perhaps? My doubt stems from;

1. A fracas, including a shout, which was unheard.

2. An uncorroborated event.

3. A statement which could be interpreted as self-serving, vis-à-vis the club.

Cheers.
LC

[Fisherman]

Jon:

"Do all the newspaper reports of the inquest have Blackwell saying this?"

1.16, wasn´t that the time? And Johnston said he clocked in three to four minutes earlier. Blackwell had a timepiece as I remember it.

The best,
Fisherman

[lynn cates]

timed results

Hello (yet again) Jon. Thanks.

"If he said he arrived back at the club at exactly one o`clock, and we know he passed a clock at the top of the street, then I suppose the answer is yes."

So one is to imagine that Dimshits repeatedly timed himself from point A to point B? It is, of course, possible. (That is the sort of perverse thing that I would do and have done.)

Do you think it at least possible that, like Blackwell (in "The Times" account) and, Llewellyn, as you point out, Dimshits may NOT be accounting for the travelling discrepancy between observed clock time and arrival time?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

The Times times

Hello Christer. "The Times" gives 1.10 as Blackwell's stated times.

Cheers.
LC

[Fisherman]

Daily Telegraph, from the inquest:

" I consulted my watch on my arrival, and it was 1.16 a.m."

Pretty conclusive, I´d say.

The Times, however, has Blackwell performing miraculous things:

"At 10 minutes past 1 on Sunday morning I was called to 40, Berner-street. I was called by a policeman, and my assistant, Mr. Johnson, went back with him. I followed immediately I had dressed. I consulted my watch on my arrival, and it was just 1:10."

So, he dressed and went to Berner Street - and the time stood still meanwhile!

I´d buy the Daily Telegraph on this any day in the week, Lynn. Especially since Johnston confirms Blackwell on the point.

The best,
Fisherman

[lynn cates]

high time

Hello Christer. Thanks.

"So, he dressed and went to Berner Street - and the time stood still meanwhile!"

But that was my point. If "The Times" wrote accurately, and Blackwell said that, then he obviously conflated summons time with arrival time.

On the other hand, "The Times" correspondent may have misheard, and he listed both times as 1.10. Does the other source have summons time?

Cheers.
LC

[Jon Guy]

Hi Michael

There seems to be some assumptives being discussed as if they were empiricals,....namely, there is a story by someone who gave the name Israel Schwartz, there is no BSM/Liz assault in front of the gates without him.

Yes, the story appears in the form of a police witness statement.

No other witness testified to an altercation, and no other witness heard or saw one..

That`s correct. Which other witnesses were about ? Mortimer was not on her doorstep yet, Brown was on another street.

He is not recorded as being part of any Inquiry or Identification process.

His witness statement is in the Whitechapel murders file. Isn`t that an inquiry?

Brown passes by the end of Berner Street at around 12:45 and mentions nothing about anything happening in front of the club gates, or some man running by with a "Pipeman" chasing him.

I believe Brown lived at 35 Fairclough St, have you seen where that house is on Fairclough St in relation to the shop? Did he say that he looked up Berner St and saw nothing?

Its odd to me that a source people would use to ascertain what was the status of the street in front of the gate at around 12:45 is Israel Schwarts, when in fact we have no reason to assume he was there at all other than his word. Since we have sources for 12:40 by the gates,

I thought it all happened shortly after 12.45 not 12.40?

and since we have Fanny Mortimer off and on at her door from 12:30 until 1am, the last 10 minutes fairly steadily,

"On and off" at her door!!

10 mins off 1am is 12.50am. It was all over by then?

and since we have 2 people seeing the young couple and neither mentioning any color on either of them, 1 witness seeing Goldstein, and since we have a grand total of zero witnesses seeing or hearing Israel Schwartz,

That`ll be correct. It fits in with all the other witness statements.

we can surmise with witness support that at 12:40 there was no-one in front of the gates in the street,.....

Agreed. As does Schwartz`s statement.

When only the Immigrant Jews at the club offer stories without corroboration that place the victim and murderer off-premises just before her cut,

Which Immigrant Jew club member placed Stride and her murderer off-premises just before her cut?

[Fisherman]

Lynn:

"Does the other source have summons time?"

It does:

"I reside at No. 100, Commercial-road, and am a physician and surgeon. On Sunday morning last, at ten minutes past one o'clock, I was called to Berner-street by a policeman."

The best,
Fisherman

[Michael W Richards]

Hello all,

None of the bickering about which account to follow resolves the issue of when exactly Diemshitz arrived, but Isaac Kozebrodski stated when first interviewed within an hour of the events that he was summoned to the passageway about 10 minutes after he arrived back at the club, which he said was at "half past 12". He then stated that he was sent ALONE to get help, and later when he returned he saw Eagle and the policeman entering the yard. Remember that quote when you imagine Louis and Isaac went for help together, clearly, Kozebrodski wouldnt mis-remeber the event within 60 minutes. Either Louis meant a member named "Isaacs", or he lied.

Without knowing specifically where Isaac went, and how long it took him to make his search for police, its quite possible that Eagle and cop arrived at the scene around 1:10am. Which would make Isaac plausible in his recollections of the time....not that amazing since he was recollecting events within an hour of their occurrence.

Heschberg also stated he was alerted to the body at approx 12:40. So did Spooners story.

Yet many people prefer the story of Diemshitz and Schwartz. Neither of which has any corroboration.

Funny thing is that if the cut was nearer to 12:46 than 12:56 an interruption by Louis is possible, because to my eye the existing facts suggest that kind of timing.

Cheers

[Tom_Wescott]

Even though Schwartz is not mentioned at all in the Club`s very own Workers Friend article that covered the murder and the goings on that night ?

Absolutely. They would have been forbidden to do so. Yet, remarkably, club secretary, William Wess, DID speak to a pressman, but when asked for the witness’ name, Wess said ‘Oh, I forgot his name. But he’s not a member of the club.’ Most attendees were not due-paying members, so he was probably not telling a lie here. But he forgot his name? Possible, but does the Arbeter Fraint discuss club member Leon Goldstein, who Wess personally escorted both to the police and press? And the Star article on Schwartz states that he had been moving from Berner Street JUST THAT DAY and was on his way back to his former lodgings when the event happened. It’s interesting that – while walking to his former lodgings – he was on the same side of the street as the club and didn’t cross the street until he’d reached the gateway and was blocked. Upon crossing to the other side, he then stops and turns around. If from this we can infer that his former lodging was on the same side of the street as the club, what other building is there on that side of Berner Street known for giving free/cheap temporary lodgings to immigrant Jews?

Here may be an interesting parallel. Look at Blackwell's testimony. He gives 1.10 as BOTH summons time AND arrival time.

No, he gave 1:16am as his arrival time. The Times got it wrong. Every other source says 1:16am.

Are you seriously suggesting there were people present just before and just after the fracas, but they all vanished just long enough for ONLY Schwartz to witness the event?

What people? James Brown witnessed Stride and a man at the corner of Fairclough Street. Shortly after, Schwartz sees her alone in the gates of Dutfield’s Yard when she stops BS Man. Following this, Fanny Mortimer stands in her doorway from approx.. 12:46 to 12:56 and sees absolutely no one until Leon Goldstein passed along the street at approx. 12:56. If anything, she corroborates the one suspicious element of Schwartz’s story…that being how quiet and desolate the street was at the time.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott