Diemschutz arrival

[Lechmere]

Tom

You must understand that when Monty makes disparaging remarks about people seeking to bolster a theory, he is having a specific dig at the (pet) Charles Lechmere theory – as is his want.
When that is understood then it is clear who he aimed his barb at!

Incidentally you may have noticed that some of the ‘Stride non-Ripperists’ have a new favoured suspect for her murderer... Kosminsky! In that he just committed that crime and from that was incorrectly blamed for the rest by the police.

Wickerman

Why are you asking whether I was serious in asking Monty my unanswered question as to whether he thought Stride’s had been incapacitated before her throat was cut?
In retrospect perhaps it wasn’t clear that I was asking Monty.

I think she was incapacitated my some means, which meant they was less blood than might be expected and she seemingly did not struggle before having her throat cut, seemingly on the ground.

That is a common MO with the other Ripper victims of course.
I wondered what Monty made of it.

[lynn cates]

Polly and Annie

Hello Garza.

"if Liz had a few cuts on her abdomen, would be having this discussion?"

Actually, I'd be discussing Kate. Seriously, if Liz and Kate both had the double cuts and bruises about the face, like Polly and Annie, and lacerated/protruding tongues, like Polly and Annie, and dresses lifted up to mutilate, like Polly and Annie, and their own statements about soliciting, like Polly and Annie, then I'd be delighted to exit stage left.

They didn't.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

easy to live with

Hello Jon. Thanks.

Ah! That's what I referred to in my post to Tom. And I can live with that too.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

I got, got, got no time.

Hello (again) Jon. Are we to imagine that Stride's assailant had no time to mutilate but DID find time to place cachous in her hand? And for what earthly reason?

Cheers.
LC

[Michael W Richards]

Hello all,

There seems to be some assumptives being discussed as if they were empiricals,....namely, there is a story by someone who gave the name Israel Schwartz, there is no BSM/Liz assault in front of the gates without him. No other witness testified to an altercation, and no other witness heard or saw one. He is not recorded as being part of any Inquiry or Identification process.

There was a young couple in the area at the time, and Brown did not see any color on either of the people he saw. However, Liz must already have been wearing her maidenfern at that hour, and Brown passes by the end of Berner Street at around 12:45 and mentions nothing about anything happening in front of the club gates, or some man running by with a "Pipeman" chasing him.

Its odd to me that a source people would use to ascertain what was the status of the street in front of the gate at around 12:45 is Israel Schwarts, when in fact we have no reason to assume he was there at all other than his word. Since we have sources for 12:40 by the gates, 2 of them, and since we have Fanny Mortimer off and on at her door from 12:30 until 1am, the last 10 minutes fairly steadily, and since we have 2 people seeing the young couple and neither mentioning any color on either of them, 1 witness seeing Goldstein, and since we have a grand total of zero witnesses seeing or hearing Israel Schwartz, Broadshouldered Man, and Pipeman, we can surmise with witness support that at 12:40 there was no-one in front of the gates in the street,..... the young couple is probably whom Brown saw, and the only thing that happened with a reliable witness after 12:35 was Goldsteins pass by the gates.

At a time I might add when Liz Stride is certainly at her murder location already, and is likely lying on the ground bleeding to death.

When only the Immigrant Jews at the club offer stories without corroboration that place the victim and murderer off-premises just before her cut, one has to wonder, considering that all Immigrant Jews on that premises that night would have been initially, primary suspects. Based on the senior officials view at that time, that an immigrant Jew was The Whitechapel Murderer.

Best regards

[Tom_Wescott]

It appears I am the only one who is not convinced Brown saw Stride, in my opinion Brown saw the other young couple that walked down & up Berner St. at that hour.

Hi Wick. Perhaps more people aren't aligned with you on this because some time back I demonstrated that the young couple were actually gone from the street a long time prior to Schwartz and Brown coming along.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

Well, I can certainly live with that too. What about the other couple supposedly out and about?

The couple had long since parted by the time Stride was killed. This is one of those numerous Stride myths that I'm always referring to which muddy the waters of understanding this particular murder.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Wickerman]

Hi Wick. Perhaps more people aren't aligned with you on this because some time back I demonstrated that the young couple were actually gone from the street a long time prior to Schwartz and Brown coming along.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hi Tom.
I do vaguely recall you having a go at it, as you have with many things, but I don't recall anything convincing coming out of it.

Regards, Jon S.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Wick. Your recollection is incorrect. I was thoroughly convinced.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

Tom

You must understand that when Monty makes disparaging remarks about people seeking to bolster a theory, he is having a specific dig at the (pet) Charles Lechmere theory – as is his want.
When that is understood then it is clear who he aimed his barb at!

Hi Lech. You're probably right, but Monty and his set seem to have a sore spot reserved for anyone who researches and writes about suspects, with a few exceptions. I've been at the receiving end of those barbs a time or two myself, and have certainly been accused of skewing my own views just to support a suspect theory, which is blatantly untrue. Remarkably, researchers will actually accept my findings and conclusions, yet still accuse me of manipulating the facts to 'bolster my theory'. It was probably for this reason that I jumped at Monty's post like I did.

Incidentally you may have noticed that some of the ‘Stride non-Ripperists’ have a new favoured suspect for her murderer... Kosminsky! In that he just committed that crime and from that was incorrectly blamed for the rest by the police.

I am thoroughly intrigued and excited by the findings presented in Patricia Marshall and Chris Phillips article. In fact, I'm surprised and a bit disappointed that it hasn't generated more discussion. However, once it sinks in, I expect a number of variations on theories, including Israel Schwartz being identified as none other than Kozminski.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Wickerman]

Wickerman

Why are you asking whether I was serious in asking Monty my unanswered question as to whether he thought Stride’s had been incapacitated before her throat was cut?
In retrospect perhaps it wasn’t clear that I was asking Monty.

Right

I think she was incapacitated my some means, which meant they was less blood than might be expected and she seemingly did not struggle before having her throat cut, seemingly on the ground.

That is a common MO with the other Ripper victims of course.

Yes, it appears to be so. Its a shame neither doctor explored the possibility that the scarf being pulled so tight could be the reason there was no noise or evidence of a struggle.

Regards, Jon S.

[Tom_Wescott]

Yes, it appears to be so. Its a shame neither doctor explored the possibility that the scarf being pulled so tight could be the reason there was no noise or evidence of a struggle.

Yikes. Does anyone study up before they post? Stride is the biggest blind spot in Ripperology, I guarantee it.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Wickerman]

Hi Wick. Your recollection is incorrect. I was thoroughly convinced.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

I am quite convinced that you were convinced, but I'm not convinced it was a convincing conviction.

Regards, Jon S.

[Wickerman]

Yikes. Does anyone study up before they post? Stride is the biggest blind spot in Ripperology, I guarantee it.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Well, let me help you out here.

"The Coroner: Was the silk scarf tight enough to prevent her calling out? - I could not say that. "

"..The absence of noise is a difficult question under the circumstances of this case to account for, but it must not be taken for granted that there was not any noise. If there was an absence of noise I cannot account for it."

No mention of echymosis around the neck in line with the scarf, nor any reference to a hyoid bone in any of the cases.
Under the circumstances the doctors should have been well able to account for the lack of noise if there was physical evidence that the scarf was pulled tight enough.

Regards, Jon S.

[Michael W Richards]

Well, let me help you out here.

"The Coroner: Was the silk scarf tight enough to prevent her calling out? - I could not say that. "

"..The absence of noise is a difficult question under the circumstances of this case to account for, but it must not be taken for granted that there was not any noise. If there was an absence of noise I cannot account for it."

No mention of echymosis around the neck in line with the scarf, nor any reference to a hyoid bone in any of the cases.
Under the circumstances the doctors should have been well able to account for the lack of noise if there was physical evidence that the scarf was pulled tight enough.

Regards, Jon S.

Jon, Judging by the nicks made on the scarf, which matched the cut across her throat in pattern, the scarf was still tightened at the moment the knife made its cut. And Blackwell said she may "have been cut while falling", which leads to a conclusion that the grabbing of the scarf, the twisting of it and the cut across the throat took place in the same sequence of events. Meaning, he cut her, while holding the scarf tight, while she fell.

Thats why the unexpected attack is seen by clenched hands, not in a defensive position. Sudden, very quick, and suspect could have left via the gates or gone through the house and out the front door.

Another thing that is talked about with too much credence is any notion that this attack on Stride was interrupted. Liz Stride danced with her killer before he grabbed her. Liz Strides killer was interrupted and therefore did not complete the work he intended. Both of those statements have equal amounts of evidence available in support of them, none.

We can imagine many things that may have happened with Liz and her killer, but before any become a "fact", evidence must be presented.

There is none for an interruption. Liz Stride was merely killed, roughly and very quickly, and her killer intended only that action. According to what is known to-date, that is.

Best regards