Diemschutz arrival

[Michael W Richards]

What people? James Brown witnessed Stride and a man at the corner of Fairclough Street. Shortly after, Schwartz sees her alone in the gates of Dutfield’s Yard when she stops BS Man. Following this, Fanny Mortimer stands in her doorway from approx.. 12:46 to 12:56 and sees absolutely no one until Leon Goldstein passed along the street at approx. 12:56. If anything, she corroborates the one suspicious element of Schwartz’s story…that being how quiet and desolate the street was at the time.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

First off what Brown saw was a woman and man at the corner, he thought that the woman was the same he saw in the mortuary. But as has been said, he saw nothing of color on either person, Liz quite clearly had both white and red on her breast. We know that a young couple were in the immediate area. He also says he saw that at 12:45, Israel says he saw Liz and BSM in front of the gates at 12:45, so no, both times and sightings cannot be correct. BSM grabs her, she doesnt stop him, and Fanny not only sees none of what Israel said happened but she heard none of it as well. Though she could hear simple bootsteps when not at her door.

Fannys statements, substantiated by the fact she mentions Goldstein days before he even acknowledges that he passed by at that time, and the young couple, likely also seen by Brown, add up to a quiet time in front of the gates and on the street from after the time the PC left, she never saw anyone or heard anyone in front of the gates, she saw someone pass them.

Im beginning to understand why this seems so hard to grasp for some people when the "facts" are continually misrepresented.

Regards

[Garza]

Following this, Fanny Mortimer stands in her doorway from approx.. 12:46 to 12:56 and sees absolutely no one until Leon Goldstein passed along the street at approx. 12:56. If anything, she corroborates the one suspicious element of Schwartz’s story…that being how quiet and desolate the street was at the time.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Fanny Mortimer is probably the most under-rated witness in Ripperology, the only witness officially corroborated by someone else (Goldstein). She seemed to be a nosy busybody that even paid attention to footsteps outside her door. She is one of the reasons that I cannot believe Schwartz's story, she bolted out to Dutfields Yard as soon as she heard the commotion of the body being found, yet she didn't hear a man yell Lipski, or hear a woman scream twice, even if it was softly.... right outside her door?

Out of all the witnesses in the Ripper case, she is gold.

[Garza]

Thats the one option I have always resisted mentioning, too contrived but still, not impossible.

Regards, Jon S.

Yes, the killer placing the cachous in the hand of Stride is not impossible, would not think it the most likely answer however.

Hello Garza.

Actually, I'd be discussing Kate. Seriously, if Liz and Kate both had the double cuts and bruises about the face, like Polly and Annie, and lacerated/protruding tongues, like Polly and Annie, and dresses lifted up to mutilate, like Polly and Annie, and their own statements about soliciting, like Polly and Annie, then I'd be delighted to exit stage left.

They didn't.

Cheers.
LC

Oh I knew you would be discussing it Lynn, you're never afraid to go outside the box.

However it is not common for two muders to be exactly alike, even by the same murderer. The canonical five have a lot of similarities, none of them alike to each other. Nichols did not have organs removed, yet Chapman did for example. Organised killers evolve, they experiment, they try and find out what it the most efficient.

[sleekviper]

What is the distance that Blackwell has to travel to reach Stride?

[Jon Guy]

What is the distance that Blackwell has to travel to reach Stride?

He had to come from 100 Commercial Rd, which was on Commercial Rd at the top of the next street along, Batty St.

[Michael W Richards]

Fanny Mortimer is probably the most under-rated witness in Ripperology, the only witness officially corroborated by someone else (Goldstein). She seemed to be a nosy busybody that even paid attention to footsteps outside her door. She is one of the reasons that I cannot believe Schwartz's story, she bolted out to Dutfields Yard as soon as she heard the commotion of the body being found, yet she didn't hear a man yell Lipski, or hear a woman scream twice, even if it was softly.... right outside her door?

Out of all the witnesses in the Ripper case, she is gold.

Im pleased to finally see some common sense being applied. She did however hear a cart, (approaching or leaving?), and she heard bootsteps on the cobblestones, (whose?). What Fanny did see, (Goldstein), sparked the fantasy of the black bag carrying Ripper, however, not her fault of course.

The Inquest line-up perhaps suggests something of a minor conclusion on the part of the Inquisitors, as it were,...Wess, who passed through the front door without seeing anything or anyone at around 12:15, Eagle, who passed by the spot the victim is found at at around 12:40, seeing no-one, then Diemshitz, who no-one sees or hears arrive, by his time, at 1:00am. He sees no-one as he made his way down Berner Street to the club.

That seems to me to paint a picture of a quiet street, before and leading up to the murder. The only break in that monotony is the sighting by PC Smith at around 12:35, the ONLY Inquest account which places Stride still alive at that location. Does she vanish when Morris re-appears? Or when Lave looks out into the street?

Interesting to me is that both Wess and Eagle hedged their statements as to whether a body was at the murder location when they looked in that direction. Wess said during his cross examination;

"[Coroner] Did you look towards the yard gates?
Wess - Not so much to the gates as to the ground, but nothing unusual attracted my attention.
[Coroner] Can you say that there was no object on the ground?
Wess - I could not say that.
[Coroner] Do you think it possible that anything can have been there without your observing it?
Wess -It was dark, and I am a little shortsighted, so that it is possible. The distance from the gates to the kitchen door is 18 ft. "

And Eagle says:

"[Coroner] Did you notice anything lying on the ground near the gates?
Eagle - I did not.
[Coroner] Did you pass in the middle of the gateway?
Eagle - I think so. The gateway is 9 ft. 2 in. wide. I naturally walked on the right side, that being the side on which the club door was.
[Coroner] Do you think you are able to say that the deceased was not lying there then?
Eagle - I do not know, I am sure, because it was rather dark. There was a light from the upper part of the club, but that would not throw any illumination upon the ground. It was dark near the gates.
[Coroner] You have formed no opinion, I take it, then, as to whether there was anything there?
Eagle - No.

Why wouldnt Eagle be able to form an opinion as to whether he had to step over a body when he enters the passageway? Which he would have, since he "naturally walked on the right side" where the club door was.

Cheers

[sleekviper]

Hello Jon,
Thanks, but I mean how far is the actual distance? From doorstep to body, are the addresses really close?

[lynn cates]

arrival

Hello Christer. Thanks. So "The Times" entry for arrival must be the wrong one.

Cheers.
LC

[Abby Normal]

With respect, Tom, the differences between the throat wound sustained by Stride and those inflicted upon Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes and Kelly are anything but minor. Of all the alleged Ripper victims Stride was the only one whose spinal column was not notched by the knife during the throat cutting process. She was also the only one whose left carotid artery was not completely severed. She was the only one, too, whose death was described by medical men as slow rather than immediate.

If memory serves me correctly, Tom, Nichols, Chapman and Eddowes were each wearing a scarf or neckerchief when killed. So why is it that such an accoutrement would prove problematic in the case of Stride and Stride alone?



Where is the evidence for these jagged stones? Given the fact, moreover, that Diemschutz was only able to distinguish the body of Stride after lighting a match, how was the killer able to see them even if they were there?



Unfortunately, Tom, this scenario does not accord with the evidence. In his initial medical assessment Dr Blackwell postulated that the scarf had been used to drag Stride backwards. In your interpretation of events Stride was dragged forwards – upwards and thus away from the ground on which she was lying. Again, where is the evidence for this contention?

There again, if there is any validity in the assertion that the killer elevated Stride’s head in order to cut her throat, this was a process that was so at odds with the Ripper’s established crime scene behaviour that it only adds weight to the contention that Stride was killed by a different hand.

Has anyone considered the possibility that strides throat cut was not as deep as the others because, unlike the others she was not unconscious and lying on the ground when her throat was cut? As in- she was awake and upright when her throat was cut, which accords with what Scwartz saw?

[lynn cates]

12.40

Hello Tom. Thanks.

I was referring to the two club members who were in the yard at 12.40.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

what, how

Hello Garza. Thanks.

If you look at WHAT was done, yes, Polly was not disemboweled like Annie; but, if you look at HOW it was done, no two killings could be closer.

Remove Polly and I would completely agree.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

falling

Hello Abby.

"Has anyone considered the possibility that Stride's throat cut was not as deep as the others because, unlike the others she was not unconscious and lying on the ground when her throat was cut?"

Well, both Blackwell and I have. (See my re-enactment.)

"As in- she was awake and upright when her throat was cut. . ."

Not BOLT upright--no sign of that. But falling towards the ground.

". . . which accords with what Schwartz saw?"

Wasn't aware that Schwartz saw the throat cutting.

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

Hello Harry. Having Dimshits enter the yard at 1.00 and then discovering the body does not sit well with this snippet from "The Daily Telegraph."

"Constable Henry Lamb, 252 H division, examined by the coroner, said: Last Sunday morning, shortly before one o'clock, I was on duty in Commercial-road, between Christian-street and Batty-street, when two men came running towards me and shouting. I went to meet them, and they called out, "Come on, there has been another murder"."

Please to recall that, by his own testimony, Dimshits entered the yard AFTER seeing a clock read 1.00. Then the pony shied, then he probed with his whip handle, then he struck a match, then he went inside the club, then he announced his find, then the lads were sent for the police, then they accosted Lamb.

So his watch should have read about 1.10.

CAVEAT: if someone is contemplating the usual lecture about LVP time pieces, please refrain--claiming that his watch might have been 5-10 minutes slow is no more convincing than 5-10 minutes fast.

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn.
P.C. Smith also suggests the murder had already occurred before 1:00 am. He says that two other constables were already at the yard when he came to the Commercial Rd. end of Berner St., it was then 1:00 am.

I have always preferred Smith's testimony (concerning his 12:35 am sighting) in this case, but this one other observation has struck me as odd, mainly because we are used to taking Diemschitz time as gospel, ..what if it wasn't?

Also, I think the couple Brown saw, and who Marshall saw, were the same courting couple, neither of them saw Stride that night.

Who did?
Only Best & Gardner, and P.C. Smith.
Schwartz?, I leave that open for now...

Regards, Jon S.

[lynn cates]

Why did Liz cross the road?

Hello Jon. Thanks.

And I thought that I was the ONLY crazy person around here.

Actually, I have always had a problem EVEN with Gardner and Betts. You see, their admonition to Liz sounds a bit apocryphal--know what I mean?

I, too, am happy with PC Smith. Wasn't the lad chatting with Liz ACROSS Berner st? if she were on the east side of Berner, then I wonder why?

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

Has anyone considered the possibility that strides throat cut was not as deep as the others because, unlike the others she was not unconscious and lying on the ground when her throat was cut? As in- she was awake and upright when her throat was cut, which accords with what Scwartz saw?

Hi Abby.

So you don't think that the lack of blood over her left shoulder and down her left side are sufficient indications that Stride was not on her feet when her throat was cut?

Regards, Jon S.