Diemschutz arrival

[Garry Wroe]

The minor difference between Stride's cut throat and that of others has strictly to do with two factors ...

With respect, Tom, the differences between the throat wound sustained by Stride and those inflicted upon Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes and Kelly are anything but minor. Of all the alleged Ripper victims Stride was the only one whose spinal column was not notched by the knife during the throat cutting process. She was also the only one whose left carotid artery was not completely severed. She was the only one, too, whose death was described by medical men as slow rather than immediate.

… the obnoxious (from the killer's point of view) scarf around her neck …

If memory serves me correctly, Tom, Nichols, Chapman and Eddowes were each wearing a scarf or neckerchief when killed. So why is it that such an accoutrement would prove problematic in the case of Stride and Stride alone?

… and the jagged stones over which her neck was lying.

Where is the evidence for these jagged stones? Given the fact, moreover, that Diemschutz was only able to distinguish the body of Stride after lighting a match, how was the killer able to see them even if they were there?

He had to use his free hand to pull the scarf up and raise her neck from the rocks, instead of using it to provide the necessary resistance to get a deep cut.

Unfortunately, Tom, this scenario does not accord with the evidence. In his initial medical assessment Dr Blackwell postulated that the scarf had been used to drag Stride backwards. In your interpretation of events Stride was dragged forwards – upwards and thus away from the ground on which she was lying. Again, where is the evidence for this contention?

There again, if there is any validity in the assertion that the killer elevated Stride’s head in order to cut her throat, this was a process that was so at odds with the Ripper’s established crime scene behaviour that it only adds weight to the contention that Stride was killed by a different hand.

[mariab]

I am thoroughly intrigued and excited by the findings presented in Patricia Marshall and Chris Phillips article. In fact, I'm surprised and a bit disappointed that it hasn't generated more discussion. However, once it sinks in, I expect a number of variations on theories, including Israel Schwartz being identified as none other than Kozminski.

I just hope you're kidding.
Neighbors at some point yes, possibly even fellow members or marginally involved with the IWEC.
Schwartz would have been several years older, if not a decade older than Kozminski.
This is almost starting to remind me of David Radka's A/R "theory" about a Jew having framed another Jew etc. ... :-)

[Tom_Wescott]

Wickerman,

This is not the thread for me to enlighten you...again...on all things Berner Street. I would agree that the doctors missed some things, but then they were not investigators or crime scene profilers, nor were they me. And yes, my argument regarding the couple was convincing, though not because of me, but because of the facts. Again, I'm not so inclined to discuss that stuff at the moment.

Maria,

No, I'm not kidding. At some point, it will get weird regarding the new Kozminski info. Either that, or people will continue to ignore it. And exactly how old do you think Schwartz or Kozminski were in 1888? They both would have been in their 20s.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

Garry,

You're creating a circular argument here, which I suppose is necessary in order to argue for her to be excluded from the canon because of her neck wound. I don't find myself so burdened, so I choose to stick with the evidence as it is. I certainly never stated Stride was 'pulled forward' by her scarf. I'm not even sure I can imagine how that would be played out. As for the jagged stones that comprised the makeshift gutter over which Stride's neck was lying, there's ample evidence of all this. No offense to anyone present, but I'm always shocked at how the line of people who show up to pronounce me wrong don't seem to know even the most basic facts about the circumstance of the murder.

The difference in Stride's neck wound is attributable to the unique circumstances presented by her neckwear, positioning, and the haste at which the killer was working.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[mariab]

Maria,
No, I'm not kidding. At some point, it will get weird regarding the new Kozminski info. Either that, or people will continue to ignore it.

For some reason, in the 2 years I've been involved in Ripperology I'm getting the feeling that only Paul Begg, Rob House, and Chris Phillips are willing to consider Kozminsky as a suspect (notice that I'm not saying "as the culprit“), while everyone else is resisting the idea or rather willing to consider Cross or even van Gogh as a suspect... ;-)

At some And exactly how old do you think Schwartz or Kozminski were in 1888? They both would have been in their 20s.

I was kinda expecting Schwartz to have been in his late 20s if not over 30 (he was married even) while Koz still lived with his parents, possibly in his early 20s?

I'm going to sleep for an hour or two, don't think I can even think straight right now.

[Wickerman]

No offense to anyone present, but I'm always shocked at how the line of people who show up to pronounce me wrong don't seem to know even the most basic facts about the circumstance of the murder.

Hey look Ma!, everyone's out of step except our Tommy!

[Damaso Marte]

There seems to be some assumptives being discussed as if they were empiricals,....namely, there is a story by someone who gave the name Israel Schwartz, there is no BSM/Liz assault in front of the gates without him. No other witness testified to an altercation, and no other witness heard or saw one. He is not recorded as being part of any Inquiry or Identification process.

I would be curious to see just how many people on this site actually take Schwartz seriously.

I don't give credence to Schwartz. And if somebody proved to me that Schwartz was telling the truth, then I would immediately join the "Stride not a Ripper victim" camp. Which is why I find it interesting that Lynn also is a strong opponent of Schwartz's story: I guess it reflects well on him that he doesn't accept the testimomy merely because it would support his theory.

[harry]

Well I are not writing about evidence.What we have in Strides murder are a number of different people giving information,and it is from this information,that both we today,a nd the police of 1888 try to form an idea of what might have happened.The only evidence is that the body of Stride was found in Duffields yard.As Tom has stressed,times should not be taken litteraly,some allowances must be accepted.That there is no corroberation,is to me of little importance.What I accept is that the police of that time were convinced the witnesses were truthfully recounting things to the best of their ability.I accept that Brown saw a stationary couple who he could not identify,that Schwartz followed a man along Berner St and observed an incident between that man and a female at the entry to Duffield Yard,and then observed another man at the intersectin,as he(Schwartz)fled.That Diemschutz entered the yard about one O'clock and found Stride's body.That these sightings happened between 12.45am,and 1am that morning.Sure I have no evidence of an interuption that may have discouraged the killer from further mutilating the body,but the information given certainly allows that the arrival of Diemschutz may have done so.

[Monty]

Tom

You must understand that when Monty makes disparaging remarks about people seeking to bolster a theory, he is having a specific dig at the (pet) Charles Lechmere theory – as is his want.
When that is understood then it is clear who he aimed his barb at!

Incidentally you may have noticed that some of the ‘Stride non-Ripperists’ have a new favoured suspect for her murderer... Kosminsky! In that he just committed that crime and from that was incorrectly blamed for the rest by the police.

Wickerman

Why are you asking whether I was serious in asking Monty my unanswered question as to whether he thought Stride’s had been incapacitated before her throat was cut?
In retrospect perhaps it wasn’t clear that I was asking Monty.

I think she was incapacitated my some means, which meant they was less blood than might be expected and she seemingly did not struggle before having her throat cut, seemingly on the ground.

That is a common MO with the other Ripper victims of course.
I wondered what Monty made of it.

Wow, you know me so well Ed. Its like you are Derren Brown or something.

Unfortunately for your ego, there was life before you and your Cross theory, which isn't really yours but anyhoos, my comment was not directed at it....or Toms theories but suspect theories which require Stride to support them.

It humours me that the only two Guys to pick up on those words of mine are the ones with pet theories...that requires Stride to support them. Paranoia supreme.

Partial asphyxiation, to provide the answer to your demanded questioning.

Monty

[Monty]

Hi Lech. You're probably right, but Monty and his set seem to have a sore spot reserved for anyone who researches and writes about suspects, with a few exceptions. I've been at the receiving end of those barbs a time or two myself, and have certainly been accused of skewing my own views just to support a suspect theory, which is blatantly untrue. Remarkably, researchers will actually accept my findings and conclusions, yet still accuse me of manipulating the facts to 'bolster my theory'. It was probably for this reason that I jumped at Monty's post like I did.


Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Heh, loving the victim approach of yours here Tom. You aren't as innocent as you make out and we both know it. And others who have fallen foul of you will support that.

Another example of manipulating the facts.

Monty

[sleekviper]

Stride was probably scared to death. "But stress and trauma don't just take out the heart. These catecholamines go tearing through all the muscles of the body. They cause muscles to burn so hard that they break down, especially skeletal muscles" http://io9.com/5919137/the-science-o...cared-to-death
Skeletal muscles being the ones that control the skeletal system. So muscles would have contracted in the heart, and especially in a voluntary skeletal muscle such as those controlling her hand.
"If it's a massive overwhelming storm of adrenaline, calcium keeps pouring into the cells and the muscle just can't relax."

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=scared-to-death-heart-attack

Stride may have died from fear.
"I know this because I have cases of children with absolutely no heart disease who died on amusement-park rides," Samuels said.
"My own view is that any human is potentially at risk. We all carry this little bomb inside us," Samuels said. "We're all at risk. If the situation is just right, if the stress is bad enough, if it's acute enough, if there's no way out, any of us can die."

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/OnCall/story?id=2614635&page=1#.UHvUMm8xrSk

[lynn cates]

B S again

Hello Damaso. Thanks for that.

I entirely agree that a Stride-out-of-the-canon person would naturally align more with the Schwartz-was-for-real camp. (Am I actually using paralogisms so freely?)

Nevertheless, I have reason to doubt his story and shall continue to hold it in suspense until convinced otherwise.

Should it prove true, we may rest assured that BS did for Liz. We may also lay to rest Dr. Phillip's concern about the peri-mortem bruising of the shoulders--BS did it.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Behold, the Lamb.

Hello Harry. Having Dimshits enter the yard at 1.00 and then discovering the body does not sit well with this snippet from "The Daily Telegraph."

"Constable Henry Lamb, 252 H division, examined by the coroner, said: Last Sunday morning, shortly before one o'clock, I was on duty in Commercial-road, between Christian-street and Batty-street, when two men came running towards me and shouting. I went to meet them, and they called out, "Come on, there has been another murder"."

Please to recall that, by his own testimony, Dimshits entered the yard AFTER seeing a clock read 1.00. Then the pony shied, then he probed with his whip handle, then he struck a match, then he went inside the club, then he announced his find, then the lads were sent for the police, then they accosted Lamb.

So his watch should have read about 1.10.

CAVEAT: if someone is contemplating the usual lecture about LVP time pieces, please refrain--claiming that his watch might have been 5-10 minutes slow is no more convincing than 5-10 minutes fast.

Cheers.
LC

[Jon Guy]

Hi Lynn

Dimshits entered the yard AFTER seeing a clock read 1.00.

Didn`t he say that he arrived back at the club at exactly 1 am, he noticed the time at the shop at the top of the road.

Therefore, it must have been about 12.56 on the Bakers clock, if he arrived at the club at exactly 1am.

[miakaal4]

Hi Lynn,
Do you know who the "two men" were? The other thing is how do we know that all the local church clocks, bells and watches were showing the same time? Even today a synchronisation between four people with watches would almost certainly show four different times. How did they know what the time was to set the clocks watches in the first place?