Diemschutz arrival

[Monty]

No idea Lynn,

I do believe asphyxiation does result in the clenching of fist and muscle spasming just prior to death.

Monty

[Jon Guy]

Hi Lynn

We have no way of knowing about an interruption. Why do some believe in it? Simply because one believes that Liz was a ripper victim and so MUST have been kept from mutilation. Obviously, this places the horse before the cart.

There is one interruption on record, that of Schwartz and BS man.

[lynn cates]

experience

Hello Neil. Thanks. I suppose empirical experience is too dangerous.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

interruption

Hello Jon. Thanks. Accepting the truth of Schwartz's story, there was indeed a fracas.

Was it an interruption? Possibly. But the question arises, "Interruption of what?" The scenario is pertinent if and only if the answer is, "A mutilation."

Cheers.
LC

[Jon Guy]

Hi Lynn

Accepting the truth of Schwartz's story, there was indeed a fracas.

What reasons are there for not accepting his witness statement?

Was it an interruption? Possibly.

Undoubtedly.

[Fisherman]

Monty:

"I do believe asphyxiation does result in the clenching of fist and muscle spasming just prior to death."

It does, and we have for example Tabram´s fists clenched. But it will take some time before this happens, time enough at any rate to drop a packet of cachous. I believe victims of fires also have clenched fists, and that too will be the final product only, of course.

On some of the earlier threads we had an example where a man had been shot through the head in a gunfight, clenching his own gun very tightly in his hand - they had to force his fingers open to procure the gun. It would therefore seem that Stride suffered a severe damage very quickly, and I don´t rule out that she was cut very quickly in the process, perhaps as she had been pulled off balance and was travelling towards the ground. If there was a jet of blood, it could have been directed towards the ground, Stride landing upon it - she had had her left artery almost cut through, and she landed on her left side, meaning that the wound may always have been directed downwards if she was cut during her fall.

The best,
Fisherman

[mariab]

And since when did Stride's inclusion become a far-reaching theory? As I recall, it was a CONCLUSION arrived at by virtually EVERY contemporary investigator. And thus far it's been a conclusion that has ONLY been questioned by writers who were less than accurate in their facts

Apart from SPE, lol.

But seriously, one of the factor that has me interested in Berner Street (apart from the complexity and the political ramifications) is the fact that this part of the case has been completely neglected or misinterpreted until about 2010.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Apart from SPE, lol.

But seriously, one of the factor that has me interested in Berner Street (apart from the complexity and the political ramifications) is the fact that this part of the case has been completely neglected or misinterpreted until about 2010.

Political ramifications?

Complexity?

Some lunatic is doing the rounds cutting people up. Not really complex.

The scenario seems to follow the pattern: dark spot, off the street, throat cut, laid down etc. There was a decent chance he would have been disturbed given the location and those coming in and out around estimated time of death. What other options did he have? Where else could he have lured a prositute to? Surely not somewhere with no one in the vicinity.

Seems to me this is a fella chancing his arm wherever he could.

Just a random thought.......

Any chance this was Cutbush's Mile End job? It certainly was near a Syndicate, and I suppose at a push Mile End Road ain't too far. Being from South of the river he may have known this area as Mile End. Taken to have been of the Jewish persuasion and got away.....

[lynn cates]

what?

Hello Jon. Thanks. Reasons are abundant and posted on various threads.

Undoubtedly an interruption? Very well, interruption of what?

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

Hello Neil. Thanks. Do you think that a movement to the throat, involving pressure, would cause clenching?

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn.
On this subject of clenching hands I read that this is a result of slow strangulation.
Although a judicial hanging is not exactly the same thing, there is a paper on the internet which explains why some person's who have been executed have distorted expressions and clenched hands, while others do not.

From what I recall of the details it is all to do with how fast the execution is, that these muscular distortions (face & hands) are evidence of a slow death.

Regards, Jon S.

[Jon Guy]

Hi Lynn

Reasons are abundant and posted on various threads.

I am aware of plenty of Schwartz theorising but I can`t recall any reason to discount his witness statement, sorry.

Undoubtedly an interruption? Very well, interruption of what?

How am I supposed to know what was intended?

Can I ask you, Lynn. Are you denying that Schwartz interrupted BS man?

Personally, it`s too much of a leap of faith to accept that Stride was assaulted twice in a few minutes and even more of a leap of faith to accept that both assailants were interrupted.

[lynn cates]

still wonder

Hello Jon. Thanks. Still, I wonder whether pressure of the throat causes a spasm/clenching of the fists?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

dubito

Hello Jon G. Thanks.

"I am aware of plenty of Schwartz theorising but I can`t recall any reason to discount his witness statement, sorry."

Well, just for a start, if true, it negates Brown's story--and conversely. Moreover, it was not corroborated.

"How am I supposed to know what was intended?"

Indeed. No more do I. But then how an interruption?

"Can I ask you, Lynn. Are you denying that Schwartz interrupted BS man?"

Well, the logician's reply is, "Dubito"--I doubt [it]. I have no reason to believe Israel's story.

"Personally, it`s too much of a leap of faith to accept that Stride was assaulted twice in a few minutes and even more of a leap of faith to accept that both assailants were interrupted."

Wholeheartedly agree. IF the BS story were true, then HE killed Liz, perhaps in a fit of pique.

Cheers.
LC

[DVV]

Hi Lynn

Well, just for a start, if true, it negates Brown's story

And vice versa.

Moreover, it was not corroborated.

Brown's story wasn't either.

[Tom_Wescott]

Apart from SPE, lol.

No, not apart from Stewart, I'm afraid. None of us are above error, though admittedly, he's more above it than I am!

Monty,

You seem to be suggesting that anyone who is researching a suspect, and accepts Stride as a Ripper victim, is only doing so to bolster his theory, and that his conclusions have not come from solid, bi-partisan research.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott