Diemschutz arrival

[Wickerman]

Do you think she was incapacitated before her throat was cut?

Are you serious?

[Wickerman]

Hello Jon. Thanks.

"we might also assume that if she was conscious she would have resisted the attack, thereby dropping the cachous."

Of course, with a movement towards the throat, the hands will involuntarily clench. Easy experiment to perform--if one is careful.

Cheers.
LC

How would a clenched hand help protect the throat? The hand would open would it not?, dropping anything it contained, if she reached for her throat.
I don't think she did.

A clenched hand and, reaching for the throat, do not go together. It must be one or the other, don't you think?
If Stride was a Ripper victim she was incapacitated swiftly, giving her no time to respond, but where is the evidence?

Regards, Jon S.

[Wickerman]

"The mouth was slightly open. The deceased had round her neck a check silk scarf, the bow of which was turned to the left and pulled very tight."

And,...

"I formed the opinion that the murderer probably caught hold of the silk scarf, which was tight and knotted, and pulled the deceased backwards, cutting her throat in that way. The throat might have been cut as she was falling, or when she was on the ground."

The killer may have used her own scarf to choke her, the doctors do not appear to have allowed for that consideration.
I doubt you could pull someone backwards by their scarf without her yelping or crying out to some degree.
Perhaps she did, maybe the noise from the club drowned her out?

Rendering someone unconscious takes time, minutes as opposed to seconds. If the killer tried this after he threw her to the ground there would be mud across her back, because we do not read that this was so, he must have choked her while she was on her feet. We know her throat was not cut while she was on her feet because there was no blood across her shoulder or down her left side.

Therefore, Stride was on her side when her throat was cut, but she was on her feet when he choked her. Which is why she still held the cachous in her hand, and she could not reach for her own throat, the choke was swiftly done.

IF....she was indeed choked first this is potentially a Ripper crime (IMO), but where is the evidence?
Is it the scarf?

If the scarf had long tails from the bow, this would make it an ideal choking weapon.

Regards, Jon S.

[lynn cates]

not reaching

Hello Jon. Thanks.

"How would a clenched hand help protect the throat?"

It wouldn't. But I don't recall making a remark about protection.

"The hand would open would it not?"

No. Frequently a feeling of hands to the throat would cause a clenching of the fist and the clenched fists would go up, in the direction of the neck. Try it.

"A clenched hand and, reaching for the throat, do not go together."

I would not characterise it as "reaching." Perhaps better is to refer to "a direction towards."

"It must be one or the other, don't you think?"

No, I don't. But I WOULD agree if she were reaching to dislodge the hands (or in her case, scarf).

"If Stride was a Ripper victim she was incapacitated swiftly, giving her no time to respond, but where is the evidence?"

I don't think Liz was incapacitated. Instead, I think she was pulled off balance by her scarf (cf. my re-enactment).

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

re-enactment

Hello (again) Jon. In reading your reply to Mike, I am again reminded of my re-enactment. This might be helpful.

Cheers.
LC

[Hunter]

No. Frequently a feeling of hands to the throat would cause a clenching of the fist and the clenched fists would go up, in the direction of the neck. Try it.

"A clenched hand and, reaching for the throat, do not go together."

I would not characterise it as "reaching." Perhaps better is to refer to "a direction towards."

Watch the Zapruder film and President Kennedy's hands as he reacts to the first shot that hit him at the base of the neck.

[lynn cates]

pressure

Hello Cris. Thanks for that. Yes, I noticed that both fists are clenched.

I wonder whether a clenched fist, due to pressure around the throat, would unclench as soon as the pressure is eased?

Cheers.
LC

[harry]

Lynn,
In answer to your post 65,the only evidence we have is that there was an intent to kill Stride.No one can say what w as intended afterwards.The timings submitted by witnesses,do however allow for an interuption by the arrival of Diemschutz.It is quite plausible,that after killing Stride,the killer would pause before continuing further activity.Perhaps the total darkness in the yard,as described by witnesses,was a hindrance,untill the eyes became accustomed to that darkness,and then Diemschutz turns up.

[Tom_Wescott]

Cut throat and then, at that precise moment, Diemshitz (who stated he saw nothing unusual in his approach or at the scene), arrives.

Well, this was the conclusion endorsed by the police, based on the evidence itself. And you keep bringing up the matter of timing and coincidence, but are perfectly willing to accept that a murder perpetrated as skillfully as Stride's should occur within 45 minutes and within a 10 minute walk of another murder which YOU seem (for reasons unexplained) to accept as a genuine Ripper murder. That would be a true anomaly, not a killer being interrupted, which quite possibly occurred in the case of Nichols as well as possibly Stride. In short, anyone who doesn't accept Stride as a Ripper murder should be very leery of accepting Eddowes as one.

That is the most likely course of events yes? Or is it the one that favours the theorists who require Stride to bolster their pet suspect?

Who is this aimed at? What suspect theorists are there who require Stride to bolster their theory? And since when did Stride's inclusion become a far-reaching theory? As I recall, it was a CONCLUSION arrived at by virtually EVERY contemporary investigator. And thus far it's been a conclusion that has ONLY been questioned by writers who were less than accurate in their facts, and only took hold because Michael Kidney was offered as an alternative suspect. But Kidney didn't kill her. So the arguments because more and more desperate, and now we're down to the one...and only...reason to question her inclusion as a Ripper victim...that being the fact that she was not mutilated. But it's forgotten that ALL of the Ripper victims were mutilated to different degrees. The killer was not following some paint-by-numbers model. He was on the streets with a knife and interruption or discovery was a constant and real concern for him/them.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Monty]

Hello Cris. Thanks for that. Yes, I noticed that both fists are clenched.

I wonder whether a clenched fist, due to pressure around the throat, would unclench as soon as the pressure is eased?

Cheers.
LC

Kennedy is involuntarily reacting to neurological nerve root irritation that the bullet, which penetrated near his C-7 vertebra, caused. C-7 nerve root irritation causes muscle spasms and other involuntary reactions in the forearms, elbows, and hands.

Monty

[Monty]

Well, this was the conclusion endorsed by the police, based on the evidence itself. And you keep bringing up the matter of timing and coincidence, but are perfectly willing to accept that a murder perpetrated as skillfully as Stride's should occur within 45 minutes and within a 10 minute walk of another murder which YOU seem (for reasons unexplained) to accept as a genuine Ripper murder. That would be a true anomaly, not a killer being interrupted, which quite possibly occurred in the case of Nichols as well as possibly Stride. In short, anyone who doesn't accept Stride as a Ripper murder should be very leery of accepting Eddowes as one.



Who is this aimed at? What suspect theorists are there who require Stride to bolster their theory? And since when did Stride's inclusion become a far-reaching theory? As I recall, it was a CONCLUSION arrived at by virtually EVERY contemporary investigator. And thus far it's been a conclusion that has ONLY been questioned by writers who were less than accurate in their facts, and only took hold because Michael Kidney was offered as an alternative suspect. But Kidney didn't kill her. So the arguments because more and more desperate, and now we're down to the one...and only...reason to question her inclusion as a Ripper victim...that being the fact that she was not mutilated. But it's forgotten that ALL of the Ripper victims were mutilated to different degrees. The killer was not following some paint-by-numbers model. He was on the streets with a knife and interruption or discovery was a constant and real concern for him/them.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

The reasons are obvious Tom, even to you. Eddowes is similar murder to Nichols and Chapman.

Stride isn't.

Again, it is also clear as to WHO its aimed at, as it says who in the sentence. I never said its a far reaching theory, just that its unlikely in my opinion.

You recall it wrong. As you do when you feel threatened.

You need to relax more and re-read my post as you have obviously just skimmed it. Especially the part where I state I cannot rule Stride out completely.

Monty

[harry]

Is the lead up to,and the actual killing of Stride,so very different to Chapman and Eddowes. E ach was seen,a short time before their death,and very near to where death happened,in the company of a male person. .In the case of Chapman a question of 'Will you' was heard by witness.In the case of Stride it appears she was responding to a question.Shortly after the sightings,the victims were found with a wound to the throat.Chapman,Eddowes and Stride,showed no sign of unease in the male's company,the male showed no sign of aggression.Strange how,when I study the killings,I am struck with the similarities,and not the difference.The only item of interest seems to be that a man called Diemschutz might have prevented even more similarities.

[lynn cates]

a few points

Hello Harry. Thanks.

"[T]he only evidence we have is that there was an intent to kill Stride."

Yes. Of course, there may not even have been "malice aforethought."

"No one can say what was intended afterwards."

Completely agree.

"The timings submitted by witnesses, do however allow for an interuption by the arrival of Diemschutz."

Yes, it is possible.

"It is quite plausible,that after killing Stride,the killer would pause before continuing further activity."

Well, it is possible. "Plausible" may go a bit far.

"Perhaps the total darkness in the yard,as described by witnesses,was a hindrance,untill the eyes became accustomed to that darkness,and then Diemschutz turns up."

But would this not also hinder the throat cutting?

We have no way of knowing about an interruption. Why do some believe in it? Simply because one believes that Liz was a ripper victim and so MUST have been kept from mutilation. Obviously, this places the horse before the cart.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

under pressure

Hello Neil. Thanks. Do you think that a movement to the throat, involving pressure, would cause clenching?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

filtering

Hello (again) Harry.

This all depends on correct identification. As you know, Mrs. Long's Annie sighting and Lewende's Kate sighting are still hotly disputed.

"Strange how, when I study the killings, I am struck with the similarities, and not the differences."

Not strange at all. A psychologist would refer to it as filtering the scenario through pre-set notions. This goes as well for us who see the differences.

Cheers.
LC