Diemschutz arrival

[Monty]

The minor difference between Stride's cut throat and that of others has strictly to do with two factors - the obnoxious (from the killer's point of view) scarf around her neck, and the jagged stones over which her neck was lying. He had to use his free hand to pull the scarf up and raise her neck from the rocks, instead of using it to provide the necessary resistance to get a deep cut. For this reason and ONLY this reason does her neck wound differ. Otherwise, we have that rarest of knife murderers - a confident killer who gets the job done in one clean swipe.

The neck wound is one of the classic red herrings of the Stride case, though by no means as far out there as most others.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Not referring to that either.

I'm referring to point that with the throat cut, the whole act ends.

Now either that is perfect timing on Diemshitz part, or the killer had done what he wished to do.

Which is the most likely?

And if he had done what he wished to do then is it likely that we have a regression in mutilation after Nichols and Chapman?

Or is it Stride was not of the same hand?

Throat cut....then nothing.

Monty

[lynn cates]

deep subject

Hello Jon.

"I don't see any major difference between Eddowes throat wound and Stride's"

Was Stride's cartilage notched by a deep knife cut--almost as deep as Polly and Annie's?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

relax

Hello Tom, Jon. If Stride were unconscious, would not her grip relax? And if it did, would not the cachous have spilled?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

signs

Hello Miakaal.

"I have read that it may have been Strides knife that was used to kill her, that says to me that she must have pulled it out for some reason"

Very well, but why is she still holding the cachous with her free hand? And if her assailant used her knife, why no sign of a struggle?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

dishonourable intentions

Hello Harry.

". . . as she was left in that position, it seems quite possible that an interruption may have occurred"

Very well, but would that not depend upon her assailant's intentions? Is there any evidence that necessitates our believing he had not finished when her throat was cut?

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

Hello Tom, Jon. If Stride were unconscious, would not her grip relax? And if it did, would not the cachous have spilled?

Cheers.
LC

We might assume that if she was unconscious she should have dropped the cachous. Alternately, we might also assume that if she was conscious she would have resisted the attack, thereby dropping the cachous.

One of these assumptions is wrong.

Regards, Jon S.

[Lechmere]

If we did have - throat cut then nothing - then suggesting stride was from a different hand might make sense. But we don't have 'then nothing'. We then have eddowes a short time later. Just the short length of time that it would take to all to algae find a suitable victim walk to mitre square and kill her.

The stride mo was:
Find single vulnerable female late at night.
Go to secluded spot with her (facilitated by the victim being a prostitute).
Render her insensible.
Lie her down.
Cut her throat.

All that matches Nichols, eddowes and chapman.
Of course more came after with them. That is explained by interruption.

[Monty]

Taking the practice of looking at each case individually, and on its own merit, then yes, we do have a throat cut then nothing.

So the interuption occurs just at the moment the throat has been cut? Not as it was being cut?

Her clothing was not disturbed. Unlike Nichols, Chapman and later Eddowes.

Cut throat and then, at that precise moment, Diemshitz (who stated he saw nothing unusual in his approach or at the scene), arrives.

That is the most likely course of events yes? Or is it the one that favours the theorists who require Stride to bolster their pet suspect?

Monty

[Lechmere]

As we are looking at a serial killer or potential serial killer and it is alleged that two attacks happened in quick succession, then I would suggest that it isn't good practice to look at the first attack in total isolation.

In any case why should it be so unlikely that the attacker was disturbed after he had made the throat wounds but before he had time to reposition the body to readily make cuts in the abdomen?

Although dimschutz seems the most likely interrupter it may not have been him - it could have been a prior event.

[Monty]

Intially looking at a murder as part of series is presumptive don't you think?

Looking at it from its individual perspective and then, if link occur, connecting is the correct procedure surely.

I am no believer in Stride being in this series of murders. However, and Tom will testify to this as we have agrued back and forth over this subject for many years, I cannot catagorically rule her out. So with that in mind Ed, I do see and understand your point. I also think its a fair one to make.

And yes, no matter how slim the chances, the disturbing by Diemshitz (or anyone or anything) is possible without doubt. I cannot deny that.

However, I do feel the evidence points to Strides killer just cut her throat and ran. And though I am against her inclusion, I do accept that its also possible that he could have gone on to Eddowes after.

Monty

[Lechmere]

Do you think she was incapacitated before her throat was cut?

[lynn cates]

clench

Hello Jon. Thanks.

"we might also assume that if she was conscious she would have resisted the attack, thereby dropping the cachous."

Of course, with a movement towards the throat, the hands will involuntarily clench. Easy experiment to perform--if one is careful.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

M O

Hello Edward (hope that's right). Can you tell me whence the MO? I thought an MO was visible from the evidence. This seems speculative to me.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

position

Hello Neil.

"Initially looking at a murder as part of series is presumptive don't you think?

Looking at it from its individual perspective and then, if links occur, connecting is the correct procedure surely."

And THIS is my entire position.

Cheers.
LC

[Michael W Richards]

Hello all,

An answer as to her state of consciousness may be within the medical opinion given at the Inquest;

"The mouth was slightly open. The deceased had round her neck a check silk scarf, the bow of which was turned to the left and pulled very tight."

And,...

"I formed the opinion that the murderer probably caught hold of the silk scarf, which was tight and knotted, and pulled the deceased backwards, cutting her throat in that way. The throat might have been cut as she was falling, or when she was on the ground."

To which was added;

"A hand might have been put on her nose and mouth? - Yes, and the cut on the throat was probably instantaneous."

The cutting of Liz Strides throat may have been done while she fell. The twisting of her scarf and the yank backwards cuts off her air and with a slight move out of the way the killer slices her throat as he positions her between himself and the wall, dropping her while doing so. She falls on her side, and she moves only her legs, drawing them into herself.

2 things pop out at me. 1, she is unable to call out or move, perhaps partially paralyzed by fear as well. And 2, no effort was made by her killer to move her at all,.. not onto her back, nor to open her clothing.

Blackwells estimates allow for a cut time close to 12:45, Spooner saw blood flowing when he says he arrived with the club men at the passageway. If the earliest cut time was correct, within a minute or two...remember, this physician is on the scene at 1:16,...then Spooners rough timing was roughly correct.

And that concurs with Kozebrodski's and Heschbergs same night accounts, to name club witnesses.

Best regards