The Schwartz/BS Man situation - My opinion only

[FrankO]

So, here it is again. Smith may also be placed between numbers 2 and 3 or 3 and 4, but, the way I see things, he fits better at number 6.

1. Wess & company leave
2. Letchford arrives
3. Lave goes outside (and remains there for 5 to 10 minutes)
4. Eagle returns to the club
5. Stride & companion arrive close to the club
6. Smith arrives and sees Stride & companion opposite the club
7. Stride, now alone, is standing at the entrance of the yard when Schwartz sees an altercation between Stride and a man who had been walking ahead of him
8. couple arrives at the corner of the board school
9. Brown passes and sees the couple
10. Mortimer comes to her door
11. Leon Goldstein passes the club
12. Mortimer goes back inside
13. Louis Diemshutz arrives in the yard and discovers Stride
14. Diemshutz & Kozebrodski run south searching for a policeman
15. Eagle runs north in search of a PC, later joined by Kozebrodski
16. Eagle & Kozebrodski find Lamb & Ayliff (PC 426 H)
17. Edward Spooner arrives at the scene together with Diemshutz
18. Mortimer enters the yard (she sees Spooner touch Stride’s face – Evening News, 1 October)
19. P.C. Lamb arrives, followed by PC 426 H
20. P.C. 426 is sent for Blackwell, Eagle for Inspector Pinhorn
21. Lamb blows his whistle
22. P.C. Albert Collins arrives as a result of the whistle (Smith sees 2 constables on his arrival and PC 426 isn’t at the scene then)
23. P.C. Smith arrives at the scene
24. PC 426 H arrives at Dr. Blackwell’s residence
25. Eagle arrives at Leman Street police station
26. As Edward Johnson, Blackwell’s assistant, arrives with PC 426, Smith leaves to get the ambulance
27. Lamb closes the gates
28. Dr. Blackwell arrives at the scene
29. Inspector Pinhorn arrives
30. Dr. Phillips arrives
31. Inspector Reid arrives at the scene

[Herlock Sholmes]

I think that covers everything Frank. We can add our + or - times of course and as long as we don't say things silly things like “how could Schwartz have been there at 12.45 when Eagle returned at 12.45 and didn’t see him” then there aren’t any obstacles to accepting the above.

[GBinOz]

So, here it is again. Smith may also be placed between numbers 2 and 3 or 3 and 4, but, the way I see things, he fits better at number 6.

1. Wess & company leave
2. Letchford arrives
3. Lave goes outside (and remains there for 5 to 10 minutes)
4. Eagle returns to the club
5. Stride & companion arrive close to the club
6. Smith arrives and sees Stride & companion opposite the club
7. Stride, now alone, is standing at the entrance of the yard when Schwartz sees an altercation between Stride and a man who had been walking ahead of him
8. couple arrives at the corner of the board school
9. Brown passes and sees the couple
10. Mortimer comes to her door
11. Leon Goldstein passes the club
12. Mortimer goes back inside
13. Louis Diemshutz arrives in the yard and discovers Stride
14. Diemshutz & Kozebrodski run south searching for a policeman
15. Eagle runs north in search of a PC, later joined by Kozebrodski
16. Eagle & Kozebrodski find Lamb & Ayliff (PC 426 H)
17. Edward Spooner arrives at the scene together with Diemshutz
18. Mortimer enters the yard (she sees Spooner touch Stride’s face – Evening News, 1 October)
19. P.C. Lamb arrives, followed by PC 426 H
20. P.C. 426 is sent for Blackwell, Eagle for Inspector Pinhorn
21. Lamb blows his whistle
22. P.C. Albert Collins arrives as a result of the whistle (Smith sees 2 constables on his arrival and PC 426 isn’t at the scene then)
23. P.C. Smith arrives at the scene
24. PC 426 H arrives at Dr. Blackwell’s residence
25. Eagle arrives at Leman Street police station
26. As Edward Johnson, Blackwell’s assistant, arrives with PC 426, Smith leaves to get the ambulance
27. Lamb closes the gates
28. Dr. Blackwell arrives at the scene
29. Inspector Pinhorn arrives
30. Dr. Phillips arrives
31. Inspector Reid arrives at the scene

Hi Frank,

I have just been reading a thread here: https://www.jtrforums.com/forum/the-...r-street/page7

In post 104 AP.Wolf refers to a discussion with a horologist and concludes "if you find a discrepancy between civil and police witness testimony of 15 or 20 minutes then this is perfectly acceptable and normal". There is another interesting post, #113, where there were 25 witnesses for a videotaped murder and some were 30 minutes out in their timeline.

The frustrating thing with the time variance that has been discussed here is that substantial differences are arising from different reporters listening to exactly the same testimony at the inquest. It's like something out of Alice in Wonderland.

Thank you for reposting your timeline. I would like to beg your indulgence and ask your opinion on some points.
At Number 7, where is Stride's companion (Parcelman), and for what reason is Stride standing in the entrance of the yard?
Just before Number 10, whose footsteps was Mortimer hearing pass her door?
Should Number 11 be qualified by adding "headed south returning from the coffee shop".

As you are probably aware, the Evening News 1 Oct 1888 contained three statements by female witnesses who claimed to have been at their door around the time of the murder. Two of those statements appear to be from Mortimer, although they are conflicting. The third is described as being from "a clean, respectable-looking woman chatting with one or two neighbours. She was apparently the wife of a well-to-do artisan, and formed a strong contrast to many of those around her". This can't have been Mortimer as her husband was a carman. Her statement was quite different to that of Mortimer and she said the she saw "a young man walking up Berner-street, carrying a black bag in his hand", and that "He might ha' been coming from the Socialist Club". This appears to be a sighting of Goldstein on his way to the coffee shop (or was he leaving the yard after murdering Stride?). I have not as yet ascertained the identity of this woman. Curious that she sees Diemshitz at the yard after the alarm had been sounded since he testified at the inquest that he was running through the street sounding the alarm.

Best regards, as always
George

[Michael W Richards]

So, here it is again. Smith may also be placed between numbers 2 and 3 or 3 and 4, but, the way I see things, he fits better at number 6.

1. Wess & company leave
2. Letchford arrives
3. Lave goes outside (and remains there for 5 to 10 minutes)
4. Eagle returns to the club
5. Stride & companion arrive close to the club
6. Smith arrives and sees Stride & companion opposite the club
7. Stride, now alone, is standing at the entrance of the yard when Schwartz sees an altercation between Stride and a man who had been walking ahead of him
8. couple arrives at the corner of the board school
9. Brown passes and sees the couple
10. Mortimer comes to her door
11. Leon Goldstein passes the club
12. Mortimer goes back inside
13. Louis Diemshutz arrives in the yard and discovers Stride
14. Diemshutz & Kozebrodski run south searching for a policeman
15. Eagle runs north in search of a PC, later joined by Kozebrodski
16. Eagle & Kozebrodski find Lamb & Ayliff (PC 426 H)
17. Edward Spooner arrives at the scene together with Diemshutz
18. Mortimer enters the yard (she sees Spooner touch Stride’s face – Evening News, 1 October)
19. P.C. Lamb arrives, followed by PC 426 H
20. P.C. 426 is sent for Blackwell, Eagle for Inspector Pinhorn
21. Lamb blows his whistle
22. P.C. Albert Collins arrives as a result of the whistle (Smith sees 2 constables on his arrival and PC 426 isn’t at the scene then)
23. P.C. Smith arrives at the scene
24. PC 426 H arrives at Dr. Blackwell’s residence
25. Eagle arrives at Leman Street police station
26. As Edward Johnson, Blackwell’s assistant, arrives with PC 426, Smith leaves to get the ambulance
27. Lamb closes the gates
28. Dr. Blackwell arrives at the scene
29. Inspector Pinhorn arrives
30. Dr. Phillips arrives
31. Inspector Reid arrives at the scene

I think this is more valuable in terms of times given rather than the order of appearance Frank. Also, note your 14/15 transition, I agree Kozebrodski meets up with Eagle, not that Issac Kozebrodski left with Louis. Issac states he was sent out by "Diemshitz" or some other member and went alone. That happened, he says, around 12:40-12:45. Diemshitz said "Issac[s] by the records and people have cited references that Koz was called by his first name, but that is singular not plural. I think there is one flaw....Issacs is likely another member.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Couldn’t ‘Isaac’s’ have been an error by the person writing? Do we know how well Diemschutz knew Koz? Might it have been his error believing that his Christian name was his surname?

Whatever time Koz gave (and I’m not disputing that he said 12.45 of course) we also know that he said this..

“I afterwards went into the Commercial-road along with Eagle.”

So how could Brown have heard the shouts for a Constable a whole 15 minutes later?

And we know that Eagle said this…..

“When I first saw the body of deceased, I should say it was about 1 o’clock, although I did not look at the clock.”

And….

“He returned to the club about 25 minutes to 1.”

“I had been there about 20 minutes, when a member named Gilleman came upstairs and said, “There is a dead woman lying in the yard.”

Which confirms, along with Sara Diemschutz and the servants and Brown and Spooner who said that he got thee around 5 minutes before Lamb, that the body was undoubtedly discovered at 1.00 by Diemschutz.

………

Id also ask again Michael why you emphasise the fact that Mortimer didn’t see the Schwartz incident (when you believe that she was on her doorstep nearly the whole time between 12.30 and 1.00) and yet you appear to dismiss as irrelevant the fact that she also didn’t see….

1. Louis Diemschutz returning earlier (as you believe that he did)
2. Morris Eagle returning to the club at 12.45.
3. Liz Stride arriving at the gates.
4. Spooner arriving with Diemschutz at 12.35 (as he claimed in part of his statement [the part that you go with])
5. Abraham Hoschberg arriving at 12.45. (as he claimed)

When is Fanny reliable and when is she unreliable?

[Michael W Richards]

Couldn’t ‘Isaac’s’ have been an error by the person writing? Do we know how well Diemschutz knew Koz? Might it have been his error believing that his Christian name was his surname?

Whatever time Koz gave (and I’m not disputing that he said 12.45 of course) we also know that he said this..

“I afterwards went into the Commercial-road along with Eagle.”

So how could Brown have heard the shouts for a Constable a whole 15 minutes later?

And we know that Eagle said this…..

“When I first saw the body of deceased, I should say it was about 1 o’clock, although I did not look at the clock.”

And….

“He returned to the club about 25 minutes to 1.”

“I had been there about 20 minutes, when a member named Gilleman came upstairs and said, “There is a dead woman lying in the yard.”

Which confirms, along with Sara Diemschutz and the servants and Brown and Spooner who said that he got thee around 5 minutes before Lamb, that the body was undoubtedly discovered at 1.00 by Diemschutz.

………

Id also ask again Michael why you emphasise the fact that Mortimer didn’t see the Schwartz incident (when you believe that she was on her doorstep nearly the whole time between 12.30 and 1.00) and yet you appear to dismiss as irrelevant the fact that she also didn’t see….

1. Louis Diemschutz returning earlier (as you believe that he did)
2. Morris Eagle returning to the club at 12.45.
3. Liz Stride arriving at the gates.
4. Spooner arriving with Diemschutz at 12.35 (as he claimed in part of his statement [the part that you go with])
5. Abraham Hoschberg arriving at 12.45. (as he claimed)

When is Fanny reliable and when is she unreliable?

It was assumed that the reporter erred when he out down the name Issac[s], I dont happen to agree with that based on what Issac Kozebrodski told reporters just after the police finished questioning people that night. Now Ive always contended that my belief some liberties were taken with timings to deflect suspicions from anyone on site were done by higher ranking club personelle, a paid Speaker that night...and other nights...would fit that description. So would the club steward and his wife, both on the club payroll too. Maybe Lave, aside from being the photographer for some club events he also lived in one of the cottages in the passageway, could be added to that group. And Israel, someone we can link as friends with Wess and directly associated with that club sometime later, might also be considered as friendly to club considerations.

That group does not have anyone corroborate anything they claim....Israels story, Louis' arrival, Eagles return, Lave at the gates as late as 12:45 by his own statement. So its peculiar that they are also the ones I suspect of complicity in falsifying details. The fact that only they have this verification issue might well suggest that only they decided this amongst themselves, the rest of the attendees were not informed of any variances in details, and as a result, they contradicted all of those statements without corroboration.

Now Fanny...she saw Liz at 12:35 but not as she entered the gates...ergo...she stepped inside for that moment. She might have been inside when Eagle returns, and that may or may not have been 12:40. Spooners story if calculated by a slow leisurely pace to the Beehive puts him there around 12:40, not 12:35, and he mentions being by the body 4-5 minutes until the last witness arrived.."I stood by the side of the body for four or five minutes, until the last witness arrived." Then he says "When Police-constable Lamb came I helped him to close the gates of the yard". He does not say how long he was there before Lamb arrived, but we can see that its more than 5 minutes at least. Lamb says he arrived "just before 1am", and of all the witnesses, a cop would know his timing.

We know Fanny was there at set points in that half hour, we know the young couple was there, we know that Spooner went into the passageway when summoned, and we know when Lamb arrived. We do not have any verification, other than corroborated stories and times by various members and Spooner, of anything else that happened or who arrived when.

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Frank,

I have just been reading a thread here: https://www.jtrforums.com/forum/the-...r-street/page7

In post 104 AP.Wolf refers to a discussion with a horologist and concludes "if you find a discrepancy between civil and police witness testimony of 15 or 20 minutes then this is perfectly acceptable and normal". There is another interesting post, #113, where there were 25 witnesses for a videotaped murder and some were 30 minutes out in their timeline.

The frustrating thing with the time variance that has been discussed here is that substantial differences are arising from different reporters listening to exactly the same testimony at the inquest. It's like something out of Alice in Wonderland.

Thank you for reposting your timeline. I would like to beg your indulgence and ask your opinion on some points.
At Number 7, where is Stride's companion (Parcelman), and for what reason is Stride standing in the entrance of the yard?
Just before Number 10, whose footsteps was Mortimer hearing pass her door?
Should Number 11 be qualified by adding "headed south returning from the coffee shop".

As you are probably aware, the Evening News 1 Oct 1888 contained three statements by female witnesses who claimed to have been at their door around the time of the murder. Two of those statements appear to be from Mortimer, although they are conflicting. The third is described as being from "a clean, respectable-looking woman chatting with one or two neighbours. She was apparently the wife of a well-to-do artisan, and formed a strong contrast to many of those around her". This can't have been Mortimer as her husband was a carman. Her statement was quite different to that of Mortimer and she said the she saw "a young man walking up Berner-street, carrying a black bag in his hand", and that "He might ha' been coming from the Socialist Club". This appears to be a sighting of Goldstein on his way to the coffee shop (or was he leaving the yard after murdering Stride?). I have not as yet ascertained the identity of this woman. Curious that she sees Diemshitz at the yard after the alarm had been sounded since he testified at the inquest that he was running through the street sounding the alarm.

Best regards, as always
George

I happen to like AP Wolf and found his posts always informative and interesting. A very fine writer. But it should be noted that he also argued that Strides throat may well have been cut by a boot scraper inside the gates, something no-one else took very seriously. So his timing comment should be viewed as a reference not the actual truth.

[Herlock Sholmes]

It was assumed that the reporter erred when he out down the name Issac[s], I dont happen to agree with that based on what Issac Kozebrodski told reporters just after the police finished questioning people that night. Now Ive always contended that my belief some liberties were taken with timings to deflect suspicions from anyone on site were done by higher ranking club personelle, a paid Speaker that night...and other nights...would fit that description. So would the club steward and his wife, both on the club payroll too. Maybe Lave, aside from being the photographer for some club events he also lived in one of the cottages in the passageway, could be added to that group. And Israel, someone we can link as friends with Wess and directly associated with that club sometime later, might also be considered as friendly to club considerations.

That group does not have anyone corroborate anything they claim....Israels story, Louis' arrival, Eagles return, Lave at the gates as late as 12:45 by his own statement. So its peculiar that they are also the ones I suspect of complicity in falsifying details. The fact that only they have this verification issue might well suggest that only they decided this amongst themselves, the rest of the attendees were not informed of any variances in details, and as a result, they contradicted all of those statements without corroboration.

Now Fanny...she saw Liz at 12:35 but not as she entered the gates...ergo...she stepped inside for that moment. She might have been inside when Eagle returns, and that may or may not have been 12:40. Spooners story if calculated by a slow leisurely pace to the Beehive puts him there around 12:40, not 12:35, and he mentions being by the body 4-5 minutes until the last witness arrived.."I stood by the side of the body for four or five minutes, until the last witness arrived." Then he says "When Police-constable Lamb came I helped him to close the gates of the yard". He does not say how long he was there before Lamb arrived, but we can see that its more than 5 minutes at least. Lamb says he arrived "just before 1am", and of all the witnesses, a cop would know his timing.

We know Fanny was there at set points in that half hour, we know the young couple was there, we know that Spooner went into the passageway when summoned, and we know when Lamb arrived. We do not have any verification, other than corroborated stories and times by various members and Spooner, of anything else that happened or who arrived when.

Spooner said:

“I stood there about five minutes before a constable came. It was the last witness who first arrived.”

The last witness (ie the person who testified before him at the Inquest) was Lamb. So we have Spooner saying that he arrived at the yard about 5 minutes before Lamb got there..

Lamb said:

“About 1 o’clock, as near as I can tell, on Sunday morning I was in the Commercial-road, between Christian-street and Batty-street.”

He also admitted to not owning a watch and by his wording it couldn’t be clearer that this is an estimation. He was out by 5 or 6 minutes. It’s hardly a shocker is it?

He then said:

“Dr. Blackwell, about ten minutes after I got there, was the first doctor to arrive.”

Blackwell however did own a watch and set his arrival time at 1.16. So when we deduct Lamb’s 10 minutes we have him getting to the yard at 1.06.

So we have Diemschutz seeing a clock then going for the police. This time is confirmed by Brown who heard the calls for a Constable.

Brown:

“I saw the deceased about a quarter to 1 on Sunday morning. At that time I was going from my own house to get some supper from a chandler’s shop at the corner of Berner-street and Fairclough-street.”

and..

“I had nearly finished my supper when I heard screams of “Police” and “Murder.” That was about a quarter of an hour after I got in.”

…….

It couldn’t tie up any better. Diemschutz sees a clock. His actions with Koz are heard by Brown. At the right time. Spooner arrived 5 minutes before Lamb…at the right time. And Lamb in turn arrives 10 minutes before a Doctor with a watch….again at the right time. This is confirmation.

……

We know that Eagle arrived back at 12.45. And that Stride got to the gates sometime between 12.30 and 1.00 and that she stood Iwe don’t know how long for) at those gates and yet Fanny Mortimer saw neither of them. This points to the fact that she was back inside….which incidentally completely tied in with the one version that she gave to the EN. That she went onto her doorstep just after Smith passed (12.30-12.35) for around 10 minutes then went back inside. It’s very clear that Fanny Mortimer was simply inside when the Schwartz incident occurred.

[Michael W Richards]

Spooner said:

“I stood there about five minutes before a constable came. It was the last witness who first arrived.”

The last witness (ie the person who testified before him at the Inquest) was Lamb. So we have Spooner saying that he arrived at the yard about 5 minutes before Lamb got there..

Lamb said:

“About 1 o’clock, as near as I can tell, on Sunday morning I was in the Commercial-road, between Christian-street and Batty-street.”

He also admitted to not owning a watch and by his wording it couldn’t be clearer that this is an estimation. He was out by 5 or 6 minutes. It’s hardly a shocker is it?

He then said:

“Dr. Blackwell, about ten minutes after I got there, was the first doctor to arrive.”

Blackwell however did own a watch and set his arrival time at 1.16. So when we deduct Lamb’s 10 minutes we have him getting to the yard at 1.06.

So we have Diemschutz seeing a clock then going for the police. This time is confirmed by Brown who heard the calls for a Constable.

Brown:

“I saw the deceased about a quarter to 1 on Sunday morning. At that time I was going from my own house to get some supper from a chandler’s shop at the corner of Berner-street and Fairclough-street.”

and..

“I had nearly finished my supper when I heard screams of “Police” and “Murder.” That was about a quarter of an hour after I got in.”

…….

It couldn’t tie up any better. Diemschutz sees a clock. His actions with Koz are heard by Brown. At the right time. Spooner arrived 5 minutes before Lamb…at the right time. And Lamb in turn arrives 10 minutes before a Doctor with a watch….again at the right time. This is confirmation.

……

We know that Eagle arrived back at 12.45. And that Stride got to the gates sometime between 12.30 and 1.00 and that she stood Iwe don’t know how long for) at those gates and yet Fanny Mortimer saw neither of them. This points to the fact that she was back inside….which incidentally completely tied in with the one version that she gave to the EN. That she went onto her doorstep just after Smith passed (12.30-12.35) for around 10 minutes then went back inside. It’s very clear that Fanny Mortimer was simply inside when the Schwartz incident occurred.

I didnt interpret last witness as the one that preceded him at the Inquest myself. I think he was saying the last person he recalls to gather by the body. One reason is because he mentions Lamb by name just after that. You are choosing to believe statements and choosing to ignore others. In the case of Lamb he also said clearly before 1. Brown saw a young couple, a young couple was seen on that street by Fanny, and the woman was not Liz Stride, he also didnt see a flower on her breast, hard to imagine that suddenly appears before she is killed. When she was seen wearing it already. Hard to imagine that the young couple that was there just disappears so Liz and some guy can take their place. Hard to imagine a street which is in view by that young couple doesnt have Israel, BSM, Pipeman or a standing breathing Liz Stride on it at 12:45. If Israel can be believed of course. I think its all there on paper, you have to determine who is worth believing, who has a stake in any outcome, who might be inclined to be less than respectful or truthful to police...(see attack on Police with clubs within 6 month on those same premises), what the reputations of the various witnesses was, ..lots of factors to consider. When you do you will find it easier to imagine that Immigrant Jews who have been persecuted in that area, and as of Oct 1st are named as the main suspect pool for the preceding unsolved murders by the senior investigator...."an ascertained fact"...might feel that in order to not get railroaded for this crime they have to present the facts in the most favourable way for their reputation. Only the ones that get money for the club would worry abourt that, funny they are the ones I suspect and have zero corroboration for their stories and times.

As I said, the times as they are given do not work together. All the times. So some people made mistakes, or gave knowingly inaccurate statements. People near clocks likely gave the best timings, or at least best based on that particular timepiece, watches or house clocks.

And 1 key witness here made his living based on pre-scheduled area coverage. He knew how long a walk around that beat took. He knew because he had to answer for those times. Tell me, who other than Lamb and the police had a mandate to know what time it was at any given time around his beat? Lqamb said he saw the men calling for help and followed them back to the gates before 1. That leaves any statements about a discovery before that search party even left for help quite likely, even probable.

[Joshua Rogan]

I didnt interpret last witness as the one that preceded him at the Inquest myself. I think he was saying the last person he recalls to gather by the body.

Spooner's evidence as printed in the Morning Advertiser;

"I stood by the side of the deceased about five minutes, till Police-constable Lamb came."

[Herlock Sholmes]

I didnt interpret last witness as the one that preceded him at the Inquest myself. I think he was saying the last person he recalls to gather by the body. One reason is because he mentions Lamb by name just after that.

There is no other interpretation. He is clearly talking about Lamb:

“I stood there about five minutes before a constable came. It was the last witness who first arrived.”

Five minutes before a Constable…..what other Constable could it have been? And when he says ‘the last witness who arrived first’ it seals the deal. Spooner was without a shadow of a doubt saying that he arrived at the yard 5 minutes before Lamb. So without a solitary shadow of a doubt Spooner didn’t get to the yard at anything like 12.35. He arrived just after 1.00. This is black and white and it’s nothing to do with interpretation.

You are choosing to believe statements and choosing to ignore others.

It’s boring to keep mentioning it but you yourself keep asserting one version of what Fanny Mortimer said whilst ignoring what she also said.

In the case of Lamb he also said clearly before 1.

Firstly, about 1.00 doesn’t mean before 1.00. We also have to acknowledge that he didn’t have a watch and he very clearly said “About 1 o’clock, as near as I can tell.” How can you possibly hold him to any exact time with that kind of statement? He was estimating and the evident shows that he was slightly out.

Brown saw a young couple, a young couple was seen on that street by Fanny, and the woman was not Liz Stride, he also didnt see a flower on her breast, hard to imagine that suddenly appears before she is killed. When she was seen wearing it already. Hard to imagine that the young couple that was there just disappears so Liz and some guy can take their place. Hard to imagine a street which is in view by that young couple doesnt have Israel, BSM, Pipeman or a standing breathing Liz Stride on it at 12:45. If Israel can be believed of course. I think its all there on paper, you have to determine who is worth believing, who has a stake in any outcome, who might be inclined to be less than respectful or truthful to police...(see attack on Police with clubs within 6 month on those same premises), what the reputations of the various witnesses was, ..lots of factors to consider. When you do you will find it easier to imagine that Immigrant Jews who have been persecuted in that area, and as of Oct 1st are named as the main suspect pool for the preceding unsolved murders by the senior investigator...."an ascertained fact"...might feel that in order to not get railroaded for this crime they have to present the facts inthe most favourable way for their reputation. Only the ones that get
moneyfor the club would worry abourt that, funny they are the ones I suspect and have zero corroboration for their stories and times.

This is all in your imagination. None of it makes sense Michael. Just by saying ‘well x and y might have had a motive to do y’ isn’t even close reality. Your theory requires Mortimer, very selectively, on her doorstep but not seeing Schwartz. But you also have Diemschutz arriving back earlier unseen by her. Hoschberg arriving at 12.45, unseen by her. Eagle arriving back at 12.45, unseen by her. And to top it of she doesn’t see Stride arrive at the gates. Fanny Mortimer was very, very obviously indoors when Schwartz passed. We can say this with an extremely high level of confidence because it’s the only interpretation that makes sense.

As I said, the times as they are given do not work together.

As long as we allow for a reasonable margin for error and discard the witnesses that we know we’re mistaken then the times fit. Kozebrodski and Hoschberg are surplus to requirements and should be ignored as very obviously mistaken. Spooner said that he arrived 5 minutes before Lamb so his 12.35 estimation can very safely be discarded.

All the times. So some people made mistakes, or gave knowingly inaccurate statements. People near clocks likely gave the best timings, or at least best based on that particular timepiece, watches or house clocks.

No Michael. Not near clocks. Or in the vicinity of clocks. Or in the same building as a clock. Or within 20 yards of someone that once owned a watch. It’s people who definitely saw a watch or a clock. People who don’t say ‘about’ or ‘around’ or ‘I should think.’ People who say ‘I saw a clock or watch and the time was definitely x.’ So that’s Louis Diemschutz (who you choose to dismiss)and Dr Blackwell as the only 2 that we can totally rely on for the time. I’d also say that when Johnston said 5 or 10 minutes past we could take that as pretty accurate.

And 1 key witness here made his living based on pre-scheduled area coverage. He knew how long a walk around that beat took. He knew because he had to answer for those times. Tell me, who other than Lamb and the police had a mandate to know what time it was at any given time around his beat? Lqamb said he saw the men calling for help and followed them back to the gates before 1. That leaves any statements about a discovery before that search party even left for help quite likely, even probable.

My first question would have to be ‘why do you then trust Lamb but not Smith?’ More selectivity? If Smith was correct in the time that he passed and FM went onto her doorstep just after he passed then she was probably inside when Schwartz arrived. Why is Smith wrong?

Lamb said “about 1.00” Michael. “About” isn’t synonymous with “before.” And even if he had said before it could have meant 12.59. So if Eagle actually got to him around 1.05 then he was only 6 minutes out. Hardly a disaster for a man with no watch.

No one gave a knowingly inaccurate times here. They were human beings who made errors. If we view the evidence sensibly and without the preconception that there was something shady going on everything fits. We know what happened apart from who killed Liz Stride and whether he was the ripper or not and we’ll probably never know that.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Spooner's evidence as printed in the Morning Advertiser;

"I stood by the side of the deceased about five minutes, till Police-constable Lamb came."

Cheers Joshua. That confirms what seemed obvious to everyone I’d say. Spooner arrived back at the yard with Diemschutz not long after 1.00.

[GBinOz]

I happen to like AP Wolf and found his posts always informative and interesting. A very fine writer. But it should be noted that he also argued that Strides throat may well have been cut by a boot scraper inside the gates, something no-one else took very seriously. So his timing comment should be viewed as a reference not the actual truth.

Hi Michael,

If someone proposes a theory that is not taken seriosly by others, does that disqualify him from being considered seriously on other matters?

I was referring to his discussion with a horologist who was considered to be an expert in the keeping of time by the police and by civilians in 1888. The conclusion, derived from the advice of that expert, was that times established by officers of the law, including police surgeons, are far more accurate than those derived from civilian clocks. This attracted a comment from Simon Wood of "You're quite right about public clocks and their inaccuracy.".

Cheers, George

[GBinOz]

Cheers Joshua. That confirms what seemed obvious to everyone I’d say. Spooner arrived back at the yard with Diemschutz not long after 1.00.

Not so fast my friend. Spooner said he arrived back at the yard at 12:25. Times quoted by Spooner, Eagle and Brown are total guesses and should be disregarded.

Diemshitz's evidence as printed in the Morning Advertiser (and other publications):
When I returned a man that we met in Grove-street, and who came back with us, took hold of the head, and as he lifted it up I first saw the wound in the throat. At the very same time Eagle and the constable arrived. The doctor arrived about ten minutes after the constable arrived.

I only noticed when the doctor came up he undid the first buttons of her dress next the neck, and put his hand in. He then told the constable that she was quite warm yet. He told the constable to put his hand in and feel the body, and he did so.

Diemshitz mistook Johnson for Blackwell, and so did Lamb. Lamb said he closed the gates while the doctor was examining the body, but Blackwell stated at the inquest that when he arrived the gates were closed.

Lamb's evidence as printed in the Morning Advertiser:
Dr. Blackwell was the first doctor to arrive, and he did so in ten or twelve minutes after my arrival. I had no watch with me, and so I only guess the time. I did not hear from those by that anyone had touched the body before my arrival. Dr. Blackwell examined the body and the surrounding ground and wall. Dr. Phillips arrived about 20 minutes after that. Inspector Pinhorn had arrived before that. I had the gate shut before the inspector came, and directly after Dr. Blackwell had finished his examination of the body; in fact, while the examination was going on.

Johnson's evidence as printed in the Morning Advertiser:
I live at 100, Commercial-road, and am assistant to Drs. Kay and Blackwell at that address. On Sunday morning last, a few minutes past one o’clock, I received a call from Constable 436 H. After informing Dr. Blackwell, who was in bed, of the case, I accompanied the constable.
Was it you who undid the dress? - Yes, I undid the dress to see whether the chest was warm.
The Foreman of the Jury. - Were the outer gates closed when you got there?
Witness. - No; but they were closed shortly after.

Blackwell's evidence as printed in the Daily Telegraph:
Dr. Phillips came about twenty minutes to half an hour after my arrival. The double doors of the yard were closed when I arrived, so that the previous witness must have made a mistake on that point.
The dress was undone at the top.

So Diemshitz and Lamb have Johnson, who they mistook for Dr Blackwell, arriving 10-12 minutes after Lamb - pretty close to a one o'clock arrival by Lamb.

In every press report bar one Diemshitz used his usual time of arrival of one o'clock. In the other report he said he came home early due to the rain. The best angle that he would have had to view the clock in the front window of the tobacconist shop would have been when he was turning from the opposite side of Commercial Road into Berner St. That was a very oblique angle to view a clock that was unlikely to be the size of a railway clock and was likely to be lit only by the street lamp. He was, at best, very obviously mistaken.

Lamb's times tally with Johnson, unless one choses an outlier report to support their case, and with Blackwell once the mistaken identity is realised. Mortimer's time intervals fit if the time for the footsteps is adjusted to Smith's time. The reality is that police times have to be given creedence over civilian clock times and especially over wild guesses proposed by non-professionals who had no reason to note the time at the time, some of whom admitted that they didn't even bother looking at a clock when they had the opportunity.

Cheers, George

[Herlock Sholmes]

Not so fast my friend. Spooner said he arrived back at the yard at 12:25. Times quoted by Spooner, Eagle and Brown are total guesses and should be disregarded.

Spooner said:

“Between half-past 12 and 1 o’clock on Sunday morning I was standing outside the Bee Hive publichouse,”

and

“After talking for about 25 minutes I saw two Jews come running along…”

and

“The only means I had of fixing the time was by the closing of the publichouses. I stood at the top of the street for about five minutes, and then 25 minutes outside the publichouse. I should say it was about 25 minutes to 1 when I first went to the yard.”

and

“I stood there about five minutes before a constable came. It was the last witness who first arrived.”

So it’s pretty vague stuff apart from the 5 minutes before Lamb part which couldn’t be clearer.

……

Eagle is very clear though although he’s estimating to. He arrived back at the club at 12.35, chatted to his friend for around 20 minutes, then Gilleman told him about the body. Which, to be exact, means 12.55 but, as I said, he was estimating so it’s quite reasonable to say 1.00. There’s no issue with Eagle who would possibly have been backed up by Gilleman and his friend when they were questioned.

…..

Brown also estimated of course, saying around 12.45 when he saw the couple (it was at the time that he went to get his supper so he might have fixed the time in some way? Perhaps a shop in clock in the shop. He’d returned home and eaten his supper (which gave him a decent way of estimating the time) so he came to around 1.00.



Diemshitz's evidence as printed in the Morning Advertiser (and other publications):
When I returned a man that we met in Grove-street, and who came back with us, took hold of the head, and as he lifted it up I first saw the wound in the throat. At the very same time Eagle and the constable arrived. The doctor arrived about ten minutes after the constable arrived.

I only noticed when the doctor came up he undid the first buttons of her dress next the neck, and put his hand in. He then told the constable that she was quite warm yet. He told the constable to put his hand in and feel the body, and he did so.

Yes, “at the very same time” raises an eyebrow but nothing more. The gap between him returning before Eagle and Lamb was probably only 3 minutes or less.

Diemshitz mistook Johnson for Blackwell, and so did Lamb. Lamb said he closed the gates while the doctor was examining the body, but Blackwell stated at the inquest that when he arrived the gates were closed.

Minor error George. These were extraordinary events.

Lamb's evidence as printed in the Morning Advertiser:
Dr. Blackwell was the first doctor to arrive, and he did so in ten or twelve minutes after my arrival. I had no watch with me, and so I only guess the time. I did not hear from those by that anyone had touched the body before my arrival. Dr. Blackwell examined the body and the surrounding ground and wall. Dr. Phillips arrived about 20 minutes after that. Inspector Pinhorn had arrived before that. I had the gate shut before the inspector came, and directly after Dr. Blackwell had finished his examination of the body; in fact, while the examination was going on.

Johnson's evidence as printed in the Morning Advertiser:
I live at 100, Commercial-road, and am assistant to Drs. Kay and Blackwell at that address. On Sunday morning last, a few minutes past one o’clock, I received a call from Constable 436 H. After informing Dr. Blackwell, who was in bed, of the case, I accompanied the constable.
Was it you who undid the dress? - Yes, I undid the dress to see whether the chest was warm.
The Foreman of the Jury. - Were the outer gates closed when you got there?
Witness. - No; but they were closed shortly after.

Blackwell's evidence as printed in the Daily Telegraph:
Dr. Phillips came about twenty minutes to half an hour after my arrival. The double doors of the yard were closed when I arrived, so that the previous witness must have made a mistake on that point.
The dress was undone at the top.

So Diemshitz and Lamb have Johnson, who they mistook for Dr Blackwell, arriving 10-12 minutes after Lamb - pretty close to a one o'clock arrival by Lamb.

Ill take advice on this George because I don’t recall Johnston being listed as a Doctor. At the Inquest, unlike Phillips and Blackwell, he was listed a simply Edward Johnston. Was he a qualified Doctor? He’s called Blackwell’s ‘assistant’. So it appears to me that Blackwell was the first ‘Doctor’ to arrive. Either way, even if he was a qualified Doctor, Johnston might have been considered just an assistant by Lamb.

In every press report bar one Diemshitz used his usual time of arrival of one o'clock. In the other report he said he came home early due to the rain. The best angle that he would have had to view the clock in the front window of the tobacconist shop would have been when he was turning from the opposite side of Commercial Road into Berner St. That was a very oblique angle to view a clock that was unlikely to be the size of a railway clock and was likely to be lit only by the street lamp. He was, at best, very obviously mistaken.

I see no valid reason to accept that George. Granted that, at a distance he might have been a minute or so out and granted that the clock might have been slightly out but we have to consider that, if Diemschutz wasn’t lying (and I don’t think that you believe that he was) he was very confident about the time.

Lamb's times tally with Johnson, unless one choses an outlier report to support their case, and with Blackwell once the mistaken identity is realised. Mortimer's time intervals fit if the time for the footsteps is adjusted to Smith's time. The reality is that police times have to be given creedence over civilian clock times and especially over wild guesses proposed by non-professionals who had no reason to note the time at the time, some of whom admitted that they didn't even bother looking at a clock when they had the opportunity.

Cheers, George

The times tally given a reasonable margin for error George. There isn’t a single issue which leaves me considering a different scenario. Body discovered at 1.00. Lamb arrived around 1.06. Johnston at 1.12/13. Blackwell at 1.16.