The Schwartz/BS Man situation - My opinion only

[drstrange169]

>>?? I think Ive replied to your last post based on that line, but unlike other posters, I wont cover my eyes when you make them.<<

I'm sorry, you've lost me, what does that sentence mean?

Are you now saying you knew "incontinently" has nothing to do with "incontinence"? Then why did you say he "peed his pants"?

[JeffHamm]

Sigh, I keep typing Anderson, it was Abberline that realized Schwartz's testimony that Lipsky was shouted to an accomplice was in all probability shouted at Schwartz himself.

- Jeff

[Michael W Richards]

>>?? I think Ive replied to your last post based on that line, but unlike other posters, I wont cover my eyes when you make them.<<

I'm sorry, you've lost me, what does that sentence mean?

Are you now saying you knew "incontinently" has nothing to do with "incontinence"? Then why did you say he "peed his pants"?

"

having no or insufficient voluntary control over urination or defecation' Incontinently

"

also known as involuntary urination". Incontinence

That's what I was pointing out, how bizarre it was that you suggested they were not in effect the same thing, by symptom.

[Sam Flynn]

"

having no or insufficient voluntary control over urination or defecation' Incontinently

"

also known as involuntary urination". Incontinence

That's what I was pointing out, how bizarre it was that you suggested they were not in effect the same thing, by symptom.

"Incontinent" also means "lacking self-restraint; uncontrolled", which is certainly what was meant in the case of Schwartz fleeing from the scene.

[Michael W Richards]

Sigh, I keep typing Anderson, it was Abberline that realized Schwartz's testimony that Lipsky was shouted to an accomplice was in all probability shouted at Schwartz himself.

- Jeff

Im sure that was the intended interpretation of who was yelled at when the statement was given Jeff.

Sam, I believe in this case it was used to illustrate his fear level, which "lacking self restraint" does not. BSM was supposed to be scary, wasn't he? The primary definitions are likely the most applicable, yes?

Ok, Israel Schwartz...where did he live the day before, on Friday, ...until Sat? Did he occupy one of the passageway cottages?
If he left his wife to move on Sat at noon, why would he think that she would be at the old address at 11:45pm? Was that address even on Berner?

[Sam Flynn]

Sam, I believe in this case it was used to illustrate his fear level, which "lacking self restraint" does not.

Yes it does, to anyone who understands that particular usage of the word. To "flee incontinently" is to skedaddle away from someone/thing by any means that you can - i.e. urgently, panicky, and with no regard for elegance or technique.

Compare this precisely equivalent use of the same adjective: "he blathered incontinently"; meaning "he poured out an incoherent and uncontrolled stream of words", not "he pissed himself as he spoke".

[Sam Flynn]

Two examples from Dickens...

Author's preface to Oliver Twist, 1850 edition: "when Scott exercised his genius on Whitefriars, it incontinently glided into the Thames"

Editor's footnote to Chapter XII of Dombey & Son, Penguin edition: "Lemprière notes in his Classical Dictionary that while in the house of Vespasian, Titus had been distinguished for his extravagance and incontinence"

In either case, incontinently/incontinence is referring to lack of control or restraint.

This lack of restraint translates into a lack of delay, as incontinently is defined in the OED as "Straightaway, at once, immediately", and its corresponding adverb incontinent is defined as "In continuous time, without any interval; Immediate".

[JeffHamm]

Im sure that was the intended interpretation of who was yelled at when the statement was given Jeff.

Yes, given what Schwartz described, Schwartz's presentation that the Lipski was shouted at Pipeman appears to be wrong. But that's why Schwartz can't be telling a story conconted by the club to divert attention away from a Jewish offender - because Schwartz's story is that Pipeman is a Jew named Lipski (Lipski being a Jewish name, not that Schwartz specifically said "Pipeman was Jewish"). The story, as Schwartz tells it, implicates, not exhonerates, a Jewish offender. Therefore, his story contradicts the very theory that is supposed to be derived from him telling his story - that he's there to direct attention away from a Jewish offender in order to protect the Jewish club. He doesn't do that, he actually directs attention at a Jewish offender, it is Anderson that decides Schwartz's interpretation of who Lipski was directed at was wrong.

So if you agree with Anderson's version of the story, and not Schwartz's, then either you think Anderson is trying to protect the club, or you think Schwartz is trying to direct attention away from the Jewish club by implicating a Jewish offender, or you have to conclude Schwartz was not telling a story designed to direct attention away from a Jewish offender because as Schwartz tells it the offender is Jewish.

- Jeff

[Wickerman]

"Incontinent" also means "lacking self-restraint; uncontrolled", which is certainly what was meant in the case of Schwartz fleeing from the scene.

Yes, but in reference to Schwartz, Websters 1886 also notes that when used as an adverb 'Incontenently' meant immediately, or instantly.

[Wickerman]

This lack of restraint translates into a lack of delay, as incontinently is defined in the OED as "Straightaway, at once, immediately", and its corresponding adverb incontinent is defined as "In continuous time, without any interval; Immediate".

There you go, yes. I find it fascinating to look up these words where the common meanings have changed, and we have several cases of this throughout the Ripper murders.

[drstrange169]

Thank you Gareth for pointing out the obvious.

[Sam Flynn]

There you go, yes. I find it fascinating to look up these words where the common meanings have changed, and we have several cases of this throughout the Ripper murders.

Indeed, Jon. It can be a bit of a minefield!

[Michael W Richards]

Yes it does, to anyone who understands that particular usage of the word. To "flee incontinently" is to skedaddle away from someone/thing by any means that you can - i.e. urgently, panicky, and with no regard for elegance or technique.

Compare this precisely equivalent use of the same adjective: "he blathered incontinently"; meaning "he poured out an incoherent and uncontrolled stream of words", not "he pissed himself as he spoke".

There is always face value ready to be taken into account Sam, My interpretation is that he used the phrase based on its most obvious and primary definition. The act would be highly consistent with someone in sudden fear of their life, and not an uncommon occurrence either. People can be incontinent when laughing, scared, a myriad of causes actually.

[Michael W Richards]

Thank you Gareth for pointing out the obvious.

Secondary or tertiary results are by definition, not "the obvious".

[Sam Flynn]

Secondary or tertiary results are by definition, not "the obvious".

Obvious to me, and quite evidently some others here, too. Without even looking it up, and from first reading, I have always understood "he fled incontinently" to mean that Schwartz ran like a rat up a drainpipe to get away from the scene. I have never, ever taken it to mean that he wet himself as he ran away.