The Schwartz/BS Man situation - My opinion only

[c.d.]

"Take Schwartz out of the equation and all the testimonies add up. Put him in and nothing makes sense."

Schwartz can also be "taken out of the equation" as it were by seeing his statement in light of a simple street hassle. Nothing more. He never claimed to have seen Stride murdered.

c.d.

[Wickerman]

I don't understand how James Brown's statement supports that of Schwartz.
If Brown saw Stride (at the corner of Fairclough & Berner st.) at 12:45 then Brown contradicts Schwartz.
Alternately, if Brown did not see Stride, but some other woman, then his statement has no impact on that of Schwartz.

[drstrange169]

In lieu of Tom answering, I'm guessing he means Brown's man to be the "Pipeman". But, if that were the case, this would not fit comfortably at all.

Brown says nothing about his man towering over Mrs Stride which he should have done if he was Schwartz's "Pipeman".

Brown also described the man's coat going "nearly down to his heels" hardly suitable for running after Schwartz.

As for Fanny Mortimer, I'm at a loss to see anything to corroborate Schwartz's evidence.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Ceeds, always good to see you. I pop in and out from time to time. This particular thread is interesting because everything in it is so decidedly wrong.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

Brown never said he saw Stride at 12:45am. He said he left his house at 12:45am. I documented all of this in Ripper Confidential. I have two back to back chapters in the book that cover everything from Mortimer to Brown to Schwartz, etc. It also explains the discrepancies between the Swanson report and the Star report of Schwartz. I spent a LOT of years studying the Stride murder but once the pieces are in place it's really not that complicated.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[drstrange169]

>>Brown never said he saw Stride at 12:45am. He said he left his house at 12:45am.<<

"...I saw her about a quarter to one on Sunday morning last." The Times/Evening News/Daily Telegraph

Alternatively,

" ... about 12.45, I went from my own home to get something for supper at the corner of Berner-street, and was in the shop three or four minutes and then went back home. As I was going home I saw a man and woman standing against the wall by the board school in Fairclough-street." Morning Advertiser/Daily News

Indisputably what Brown actually said is not clear.

What we do know is that Baxter in his summing up placed the Brown encounter "within a quarter of an hour" of one o'clock.

Either way Brown should have seen or heard "Pipeman" and/or the shouts of "Lipski", men running, be it going to the shop, be it in the shop or be it coming back from the shop.

[John G]

Isn't it more likely that Brown observed the same couple-a young man and his sweetheart-seen by Fanny Mortimer in the same location?

[Wickerman]

Isn't it more likely that Brown observed the same couple-a young man and his sweetheart-seen by Fanny Mortimer in the same location?

That's precisely who I think he saw - not seeing a flower on the woman's coat.

[John G]

That's precisely who I think he saw - not seeing a flower on the woman's coat.

Yes, there is that as well. And he didn't seem totally confident about his identification, telling the inquest he was "almost certain."

[Tom_Wescott]

Wow, you guys are arguing stuff proved wrong many, many years. There was no couple on the corner at that time. I found and published an interview with the girl. She was long gone by then. Dr. Strange, I know you have a copy of Ripper Confidential, because you created a thread a couple of years ago to prove how wrong I was on two significant points, only to be informed by others that I was, in fact, correct. Go back and read the sources I provided on Brown, on the so-called young couple, etc. The Berner Street Mystery is not so mysterious when you step outside the sources used in 30 year old books.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[John G]

Wow, you guys are arguing stuff proved wrong many, many years. There was no couple on the corner at that time. I found and published an interview with the girl. She was long gone by then. Dr. Strange, I know you have a copy of Ripper Confidential, because you created a thread a couple of years ago to prove how wrong I was on two significant points, only to be informed by others that I was, in fact, correct. Go back and read the sources I provided on Brown, on the so-called young couple, etc. The Berner Street Mystery is not so mysterious when you step outside the sources used in 30 year old books.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Oh yeah, Echo, Oct 1, 1888-just checked Ripper Confidential, although I do wonder about the acuracy of some of these timings. I've had the book for some time but haven't started it yet (and now I've got Drew Gray's book, but that seems to contain lots of errors and a premise and suspect I don't agree with, so I'll probably end up using it as a door stop).

Interestingly the girl also said she saw a man heading off in the direction of Aldgate. Obviously JtR on his way to Mitre Square. Oh, the pleasure of irony!

[Wickerman]

Wow, you guys are arguing stuff proved wrong many, many years. There was no couple on the corner at that time. I found and published an interview with the girl. She was long gone by then. Dr. Strange, I know you have a copy of Ripper Confidential, because you created a thread a couple of years ago to prove how wrong I was on two significant points, only to be informed by others that I was, in fact, correct. Go back and read the sources I provided on Brown, on the so-called young couple, etc. The Berner Street Mystery is not so mysterious when you step outside the sources used in 30 year old books.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hold yer horses young fella, you choose to accept a discrepancy between Brown's sighting around 12:45 and Schwartz's sighting about 12:45. Yet you choose to dismiss the same time discrepancy between Brown's sighting of the young couple at the corner of the street (confirmed by Mortimer), and the young girl's statement to the press.
Mrs Mortimer makes it clear this young couple were at the corner of the street before, during, and after the murder.

Careful with the liberal use of "proved", it often acts as a trip wire to the unwary

[John G]

Hold yer horses young fella, you choose to accept a discrepancy between Brown's sighting around 12:45 and Schwartz's sighting about 12:45. Yet you choose to dismiss the same time discrepancy between Brown's sighting of the young couple at the corner of the street (confirmed by Mortimer), and the young girl's statement to the press.
Mrs Mortimer makes it clear this young couple were at the corner of the street before, during, and after the murder.

Careful with the liberal use of "proved", it often acts as a trip wire to the unwary

Yes, I agree. Lots of witnesses gave questionable timings that night, for example, Spooner, who reckoned he arrived at the yard at around 12:35; Kozebrodski, who said Louis called him into the yard at about 12:40; Heshburg, who said it was about 12:45 when he saw the murdered woman (Stride). Even PC Smith's timings are highly debatable.

[Tom_Wescott]

Wickerman, Fanny Mortimer never saw the young couple. She spoke with the young woman after the murder happened and everyone was on the street. Because of Mortimer's statement the reports sought out the young woman and got her story, but found out she'd actually be there much earlier and had seen nothing. Initially, the assumption was that Stride had been dead in the yard for a while.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[drstrange169]

>>Dr. Strange, I know you have a copy of Ripper Confidential, because you created a thread a couple of years ago to prove how wrong I was on two significant points, only to be informed by others that I was, in fact, correct.<<

Three errors, in fact, one of which I rather stupidly got wrong, tothers were and still are correct, but, point taken, we both can be wrong.


Yes, of course, I've read R.C. and I fully understand your theory, it is certainly one possible version. Why it's not a definative version, I've already outlined,

"... Brown should have seen or heard "Pipeman" and/or the shouts of "Lipski", men running, be it going to the shop, be it in the shop or be it coming back from the shop."

Peoples' claimed times can be hopelessly wrong and that could explain things, but if anybody is going to use the times claimed by this cast of charecters then there is and will always be a question mark over Brown, Mortimer and Schwartz.



>>I found and published an interview with the girl ... back and read the sources I provided on Brown, on the so-called young couple, etc. <<

I don't have a problem with the sweethearts not being Brown's couple. The Echo's article has always been available here at Casebook, surely, "Viper" was the first person to find and re-publish the article?



>>The Berner Street Mystery is not so mysterious when you step outside the sources used in 30 year old books. <<

It is and probably always will remain a mystery because of the lack of real evidence available to us. The ongoing nature of these jtr mysteries are the hook that landed most of us here.