The Schwartz/BS Man situation - My opinion only

[GBinOz]

So did Eagle return at pretty much the same time as Smith passed? Presumably you mean Eagle returns just before this, so about 12:30.

Eagle: I came back about twenty minutes to one...

So out by about +10 minutes. Coincidently it would seem, the same +10 minutes that Fanny was out in her estimate of Smith passing.

I had been there about 20 minutes when the man I mentioned-Gigelmann-came and said, "There is a dead woman lying in the yard."

So that would be at about 12:50. Is that what he said...?

When I first saw the body it was about one o'clock, as near as I could judge.

No. So was the 20 minutes really 30 minutes? Did Eagle add 10 minutes to his estimates so that he could agree with Diemschitz' 1am? Why would he do that? Was it part of some conspiracy?

Andrew, "was the 20 minutes really 30 minutes". It doesn't matter. The twenty minute estimate was being added to the estimate for the round trip to the girlfriend's which on 1 Oct he said started at 12 midnight and at the inquest he said started between 11:30 and 11:45, so by his own admissions he could be +/- 15 minutes out plus any estimating errors. Why do people keep quoting Eagle? His times are rubbish and his perceptions questionable:-
From the Daily Telegraph account of Eagle's testimony at the inquest:
[Coroner] Did you see anyone about in Berner-street? - I dare say I did, but I do not remember them.
[Coroner] Did you observe any one in the yard? - I do not remember that I did.

Eagle is being offered up as a timescale benchmark but no one even knows how long before his starting point guesses that it was that he had actually sighted a clock. The same can be said of Brown and Spooner and Lave. If the times of the police are adopted and other's time interval estimates are applied to police times we will derive a far more accurate picture.

Cheers, George

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Jesus!

For a start we have Eagle returning at 12.35 according to the Times version.

Forget times!!!!

Fanny said that she went onto her doorstep just after Smith. Forget 12.45. Just after Smith.

Was she telling the truth?

Fanny didn’t see Eagle because she was indoors. She didn’t see Stride because she was indoors. She didn’t see Schwartz because she was indoors.

So is the following a big lie...?

I was standing at the door of my house nearly the whole time between half-past twelve and one o'clock this morning, and did not notice anything unusual.

And so Smith passed, followed by Eagle, then Fanny goes to her doorstep then she goes back inside, then Stride arrives, then Schwartz. Or maybe Eagle returned at 12.35 and Smith passed at 12.36.

Forget times!!!!

No conspiracy. No cover up.

Who lied? Was it the neighbour on her doorstep, or the man who ran from a murder scene?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

No, no, no.

You just can’t help yourself can you?

Where in any statement anywhere does Fanny Mortimer or anyone else say that she owned a clock? And before you say “well how did she get 12.45?” there are a number of ways. We can’t just ‘assume’ because it’s convenient to do so.

The phrase "shortly before a quarter to one o'clock" is precise enough that a clock can pretty much be assumed. However, even if it is not assumed, we go back to your common accusation that I "conveniently ignore" this report. Yet I more or less agree with the times in this report, and you don't! See the irony?

Now let's see if you can swallow your own medicine...

You want to adjust Mortimer's "shortly before a quarter to one o'clock" to "shortly after twelve-thirty" - thus putting her in line with Smith. So where does Smith state that he was a going by a timepiece or clock?

Smith: I was last in Berner-street about half-past 12 or 12:35.

Is that an estimate of where he had been half an hour previously, or a clock/watch time he had written in his notebook?

Mortimer's time may well be the more accurate, yet if the opposite is assumed true, then Smith's later time (back to Berner street) must be regarded as at least as accurate as the earlier...

At 1 o'clock I went to Berner-street in my ordinary round. I saw a crowd of people outside the gates of No. 40.

That crowd included Lamb. So who turned into the Berner street at ~1am - Smith or Diemschitz? If it were Smith, then the Schwartz incident becomes coincident with the murder, and therefore Schwartz effectively admitted to running from a murder seen (as the Echo report suggests). If it were Diemschitz, then Smith is arriving at closer to 1:10 than 1:00, and therefore he was last in Berner street pretty much right when Fanny Mortimer implied he was.

Swanson no doubt just heard from a subordinate that she saw Goldstein before the discovery of the body and so about 1.00.

I thought Goldstein was investigated and cleared? Why would the time noted by Swanston, implicitly refer to that of another witness, and not the time stated by Leon as part of the investigation into his movements on the night?

Why do you persist in taking this woman literally. She went out after 1.00 went she heard the noise after the discovery of the body which occurred at 1.00.

So her owning of a clock seems to be beside the point - she knows the correct time anyway!

Just begin your thinking by saying this: “There was no stupid, pointless, unrealistic conspiracy and estimated times cannot be taken literally and therefore should be allowed a margin for error.”

If you use this mantra every single issue disappears and we can return to a land of reason and sense. (Fat chance!)

He might ha' been coming from the Socialist Club.

[GBinOz]

Not necessarily true, George. Only one paper stated that Koz arrived at twelve thrity, whereas two stated six thirty. It just depends on which you want to believe.

Daily News 1 Oct
"I was in this club last night. I came in about half-past six in the evening."

Evening News
"I came into the club about which you are asking me at half-past twelve o'clock."

Irish Times
"I came in about 6.30 in the evening and I have not been away from it since."

Hi Joshua,

You got me again. It's not a matter of what I want to believe, it's just a matter of not going through every news publication looking for conflicting reports. I know, I should know by now. Thanks for picking me up on that oversight.

Cheers, George

[Herlock Sholmes]

.
In other words, my assumptions are all correct, and therefore Israel Schwartz is saved, and so anyone who disagrees with me is just a wishful thinker wanting to peddle some crazy theory.

No. Anyone who thinks that there was a cover up is a ‘wishful thinker.’

Not the phrase I’d use but…..

[Herlock Sholmes]

. Why is this adjustment of Mortimer's times actually necessary? It is of course, to save Israel Schwartz. If it were not for Schwartz we would not be having this conversation, and Mortimer's times would be more or less accepted by all. But wait, has it not been agreed by the calm, logical ones, that Fanny might have been far away from her door when the incident occurs? Why do we need to suppose that and that Fanny got her times wrong? Is it because hoping that Fanny was on the loo is too much of a risk to take?

No it’s because we can ask what is likelier. That Fanny missed things because she’d gone indoors (the very thought!) or that Israel Schwartz lied to place himself at the scene of a murder for absolutely no reason.

Therefore…….

[Herlock Sholmes]

. So did Eagle return at pretty much the same time as Smith passed? Presumably you mean Eagle returns just before this, so about 12:30.

Eagle: I came back about twenty minutes to one...

So out by about +10 minutes. Coincidently it would seem, the same +10 minutes that Fanny was out in her estimate of Smith passing.

I had been there about 20 minutes when the man I mentioned-Gigelmann-came and said, "There is a dead woman lying in the yard."

So that would be at about 12:50. Is that what he said...?

When I first saw the body it was about one o'clock, as near as I could judge.

No. So was the 20 minutes really 30 minutes? Did Eagle add 10 minutes to his estimates so that he could agree with Diemschitz' 1am? Why would he do that? Was it part of some conspiracy?

Jesus!

For a start we have Eagle returning at 12.35 according to the Times version.

Fanny said that she went onto her doorstep just after Smith. Forget 12.45. Just after Smith.

Forget times!!!!

Fanny didn’t see Eagle because she was indoors. She didn’t see Stride because she was indoors. She didn’t see Schwartz because she was indoors. And so Smith passed, followed by Eagle, then Fanny goes to her doorstep then she goes back inside, then Stride arrives, then Schwartz. Or maybe Eagle returned at 12.35 and Smith passed at 12.36.

No conspiracy. No cover up.

[Herlock Sholmes]

.
Making out that I'm turning this into a issue of exact times, is at best a way of avoiding the issues, and at worst, dishonest.

There are no issues. They are created by people with agendas and not by me.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Again, you’re trying to make things fail by using estimated times as exact times to ensure this failure.why? How many times do we have to go over this?

This is a commonly used tactic of yours - failing to quote the poster, and then making out that they have said or implied something they didn't. You do it all the time.

So I can answer a previous question myself. She were in the yard from the time Smith has passed - about 12:35 - to somewhere between FM's lockup - about 12:45 - and LD's arrival - about 12:50. So about 12 minutes in the yard, unseen or heard by anyone.

You often try to pretend that my arguments are all and only about exact times. That is not true. In this example I was referring to George's theory that Stride entered the yard before Fanny went to her door, and was still there when Fanny locked up. That is a substantial period to go unnoticed, and also raises the question as to what she is doing in the yard, and also why was she not visible to Mortimer. That is, why was she not standing in the gateway and therefore visible to someone on the same side of the street...

Swanston: ... on turning into Berner St. from Commercial Road & having got as far as the gateway where the murder was committed he saw a man stop & speak to a woman, who was standing in the gateway.

Making out that I'm turning this into a issue of exact times, is at best a way of avoiding the issues, and at worst, dishonest.

We can’t be certain of these times, so for example

Mortimer goes onto her doorstep at 12.35 just after Smith passed. She just misses Eagle who returned to the yard a minute or so before.

So did Eagle return at pretty much the same time as Smith passed? Presumably you mean Eagle returns just before this, so about 12:30.

Eagle: I came back about twenty minutes to one...

So out by about +10 minutes. Coincidently it would seem, the same +10 minutes that Fanny was out in her estimate of Smith passing.

I had been there about 20 minutes when the man I mentioned-Gigelmann-came and said, "There is a dead woman lying in the yard."

So that would be at about 12:50. Is that what he said...?

When I first saw the body it was about one o'clock, as near as I could judge.

No. So was the 20 minutes really 30 minutes? Did Eagle add 10 minutes to his estimates so that he could agree with Diemschitz' 1am? Why would he do that? Was it part of some conspiracy?

She goes back inside just before Schwartz arrives.

Why is this adjustment of Mortimer's times actually necessary? It is of course, to save Israel Schwartz. If it were not for Schwartz we would not be having this conversation, and Mortimer's times would be more or less accepted by all. But wait, has it not been agreed by the calm, logical ones, that Fanny might have been far away from her door when the incident occurs? Why do we need to suppose that and that Fanny got her times wrong? Is it because hoping that Fanny was on the loo is too much of a risk to take?

So I’ll say it again, and I’m usually considered the stick-in-the-mud, overly cautious one, that nothing, absolutely, categorically nothing disproves Schwartz statement of having been in Berner Street that night at approximately (for all we know it might have been exactly) 12.45 or that he saw what he said that he did. I can’t even see how this can be a valid subject for debate. It’s black and white. Unless someone comes up with the absolute, cast-iron, cannot-be-disputed clincher (and in the whole history of the subject so far no one has been able to) then any suggestion that Schwartz lied is complete wish thinking to promote and bolster a theory.

In other words, my assumptions are all correct, and therefore Israel Schwartz is saved, and so anyone who disagrees with me is just a wishful thinker wanting to peddle some crazy theory.

[Herlock Sholmes]

So from who did Swanston get the 'about 1am' - Mortimer or Goldstein? The report is referencing Goldstein's statement at Leman street.

If Mortimer's clock was out by about +10 minutes, then why did she say she went out just after 1am, and not just after 1:10? Why did she suddenly get the time right? Did Diemschitz going around telling people he arrived at 1am, resulting in Fanny making a -10 minute adjustment? If yes, then why didn't she adjust "shortly before a quarter to one o'clock" to something like "shortly after twelve-thirty"? Also if yes, why would Diemschitz go around persuading people that he arrived at 1am? Was this part of some sort of conspiracy? If no, then what is your explanation for Fanny getting her time to the yard right?

FM: A man touched her face, and said it was quite warm, so that the deed must have been done while I was standing at the door of my house.

That man would seem to be Edward Spooner, so her belief that she entered the yard just after 1am - prior to Lamb's arrival - seems to be pretty much spot on. So this "let's have Fanny Mortimer locking up before 12:45" theory, is going nowhere fast.

No, no, no.

You just can’t help yourself can you?

Where in any statement anywhere does Fanny Mortimer or anyone else say that she owned a clock? And before you say “well how did she get 12.45?” there are a number of ways. We can’t just ‘assume’ because it’s convenient to do so.

Swanson no doubt just heard from a subordinate that she saw Goldstein before the discovery of the body and so about 1.00.

Why do you persist in taking this woman literally. She went out after 1.00 went she heard the noise after the discovery of the body which occurred at 1.00.

Just begin your thinking by saying this: “There was no stupid, pointless, unrealistic conspiracy and estimated times cannot be taken literally and therefore should be allowed a margin for error.”

If you use this mantra every single issue disappears and we can return to a land of reason and sense. (Fat chance!)

[NotBlamedForNothing]

We get Goldstein’s time from the unreliable Fanny. We know that he passed but we can’t know at what time.

So from who did Swanston get the 'about 1am' - Mortimer or Goldstein? The report is referencing Goldstein's statement at Leman street.

If Mortimer's clock was out by about +10 minutes, then why did she say she went out just after 1am, and not just after 1:10? Why did she suddenly get the time right? Did Diemschitz going around telling people he arrived at 1am, resulting in Fanny making a -10 minute adjustment? If yes, then why didn't she adjust "shortly before a quarter to one o'clock" to something like "shortly after twelve-thirty"? Also if yes, why would Diemschitz go around persuading people that he arrived at 1am? Was this part of some sort of conspiracy? If no, then what is your explanation for Fanny getting her time to the yard right?

FM: A man touched her face, and said it was quite warm, so that the deed must have been done while I was standing at the door of my house.

That man would seem to be Edward Spooner, so her belief that she entered the yard just after 1am - prior to Lamb's arrival - seems to be pretty much spot on. So this "let's have Fanny Mortimer locking up before 12:45" theory, is going nowhere fast.

[Herlock Sholmes]

.
It was just after one o'clock when I went out...

... implying that she saw LG just before one o'clock. Yet according to the recalibration of Mortimer's times to Smith's times theory, this is wrong, and she must have actually seen LG shortly before 12:45. So what does Swanston's report say about Goldstein and the time of his passing through Berner street...?

about 1 a.m. 30th Leon Goldstein of 22 Christian Street Commercial Road, called at Leman St. & stated that he was the man that passed down Berner St. with a black bag at that hour, that the bag contained empty cigarette boxes & that he had left a coffee house in Spectacle Alley a short time before.

About 1am. Not about a quarter to one. It would have been interesting if Goldstein and Schwartz had given the same time.

We get Goldstein’s time from the unreliable Fanny. We know that he passed but we can’t know at what time.

[Herlock Sholmes]

. ut how long was Stride in the yard, unseen by any club member, before being killed? What do you suppose she was doing in the yard?

No one knows. No one can know. No one will ever know. Speculation is pointless.

[Herlock Sholmes]

.
If FM goes inside before the Schwartz incident, and Stride has been in the yard since before FM goes outside, then why wasn't she spotted by either Eagle or Lave? Or are Eagle and Lave back inside before Smith passes?

Again, you’re trying to make things fail by using estimated times as exact times to ensure this failure.why? How many times do we have to go over this? We can’t be certain of these times, so for example

Mortimer goes onto her doorstep at 12.35 just after Smith passed. She just misses Eagle who returned to the yard a minute or so before. She goes back inside just before Schwartz arrives.

A while ago Frank posted these versions of what Lave did

• I was in the yard at about 20 minutes to one
• I came out first at half past 12
• I passed out/strolled into the street
• I remained out until 20 minutes to one
• I went down into the court about 20 minutes before the body was discovered
• I walked about for 5 minutes or more

So he’s about as easy to tie down as an eel. So I fail to see how he can be used on either side of any debate.

Alternatively to the above short timeline

Eagle returns at 12.35. Smith passes at 12.36 and Fanny comes onto her doorstep immediately after him (so basically it’s still 12.36 or say 12.37 if you like) She ESTIMATES 10 minutes on her doorstep but it’s possibly a little less. She goes back inside before Schwartz arrives.

And we haven’t even considered the very real possibility that Schwartz 12.45 can’t be taken literally. So he might easily have passed at 12.46 or 12.47.

…….

There are numerous variations here. None of them can be disproven by facts. They can only be questioned by people taking every single time as being exact and perfectly synchronised.

So I’ll say it again, and I’m usually considered the stick-in-the-mud, overly cautious one, that nothing, absolutely, categorically nothing disproves Schwartz statement of having been in Berner Street that night at approximately (for all we know it might have been exactly) 12.45 or that he saw what he said that he did. I can’t even see how this can be a valid subject for debate. It’s black and white. Unless someone comes up with the absolute, cast-iron, cannot-be-disputed clincher (and in the whole history of the subject so far no one has been able to) then any suggestion that Schwartz lied is complete wish thinking to promote and bolster a theory.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

For Kozebrodski, he was turning up for work at 12:30, so he probably checked the clock to see if he was on time (according to the club clock's time zone). His ten minute estimate would not be subject to the magnitude of error possible in Eagle's estimate.

DN, Oct 1: A young Russian Pole named Isaac M. Kozebrodski, born in Warsaw, who speaks the English language imperfectly, gave the following information:-I was in this club last night. I came in about half-past six in the evening.

The only person who might have been turning up for work after midnight, was Liz Stride.

"I should think" was victorian speak for "I believe this to be true" Hoschberg was estimating, but being in the Club where there was a clock this was likely a shorter estimate than Eagle's.

If you believe AH was in the club at the time, then who else in the club heard the whistle?

I am aware that you have labelled FM as an unreliable witness, but I am also aware that you have promoted the idea of recalibrated her times to Smith's passing. So she arrives at her door stoop just after Stride has crossed into the yard so she doesn't see her.

About how long was Stride in the yard, unseen by any club member, before being killed? What do you suppose she was doing in the yard?

She goes back inside just before the Schwartz incident, which is over in a minute or less. Due to clock sync and estimate errors, Eagle and Lave are back in the yard, Brown and Letchford are over before she arrives on the stoop.

If FM goes inside before the Schwartz incident, and Stride has been in the yard since before FM goes outside, then why wasn't she spotted by either Eagle or Lave? Or are Eagle and Lave back inside before Smith passes?

Here is the point where you and I conflict. FM said she heard Diemshitz pass 4 minutes after going inside, ...

No she didn't say that. That was the reporter doing sums...

... and it so happened that in about four minutes' time she heard the pony cart pass the house ...

... so ABOUT 12:50 plus or minus a few minutes.

So I can answer a previous question myself. She were in the yard from the time Smith has passed - about 12:35 - to somewhere between FM's lockup - about 12:45 - and LD's arrival - about 12:50. So about 12 minutes in the yard, unseen or heard by anyone.

There is another issue. Fanny witnessed Goldstein just before locking up. Aside from the details, about what time was that? Fanny said...

It was just after one o'clock when I went out...

... implying that she saw LG just before one o'clock. Yet according to the recalibration of Mortimer's times to Smith's times theory, this is wrong, and she must have actually seen LG shortly before 12:45. So what does Swanston's report say about Goldstein and the time of his passing through Berner street...?

about 1 a.m. 30th Leon Goldstein of 22 Christian Street Commercial Road, called at Leman St. & stated that he was the man that passed down Berner St. with a black bag at that hour, that the bag contained empty cigarette boxes & that he had left a coffee house in Spectacle Alley a short time before.

About 1am. Not about a quarter to one. It would have been interesting if Goldstein and Schwartz had given the same time.