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The Schwartz/BS Man situation - My opinion only

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  • Harry D
    replied
    Does no one else find it odd that a non-English speaking Jew (who were usually recalcitrant and distrusting of the authorities) willingly came forward to the police? Maybe Israel Schwartz was an honest guy, although I question that since he left a woman in distress and never searched for a policeman.

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  • Michael W Richards
    replied
    Originally posted by JeffHamm View Post
    Ah, no, I've not seen that before. So, effectively your surly-man is broad shouldered man.

    - Jeff
    Hi Jeff,

    He is, and if Im correct, likely a hired thug brought in for the meeting that night, which at the beginning of the week, was supposed to have William Morris speaking there. He was Security. There were threats made from some parties, and so Morris is scrubbed, and Eagle is subbed. But my bet is that Surly man was hired when the threat existed, and was out having smoke in the alley when Liz shows up. I don't believe the Lipski..I think that was drama too...and I see no reason to believe in Pipeman either. But I do note one thing that seems incongruous with the reports about usual goings on after meetings..."low men" hung out in that passageway smoking and talking, often past 1am. Its entirely possible, even if Im correct about this premise, that others may have been in that passageway at that same time. Eagle just arrived at 12:40, if the body is there already, something he wasnt sure of apparently, then Lave may have been there too by his statement.

    The flak that I get over the suggestion that the club staff would bend the truth here must be based on a belief that these were law abiding people just telling the truth for truths sake, and that they wouldn't fear reprisals for suspicions about them in connection with this murder. Loss of wages in a depressed area is fear inducing. Loss of venue in Socialist terms would be harmful to the movement. Police suspecting the club means its likely the killer would be Jewish, something none of the members would want. This is immediately associated with the unknown killer at large by the club people yelling "another murder" has been committed, so if suspicions caused intense scrutiny the police might be looking to pin a few murders on a club Jew. This anti Jewish angle rears its head off Goulston later on.
    Last edited by Michael W Richards; 11-14-2019, 02:25 PM.

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  • JeffHamm
    replied
    Ah, no, I've not seen that before. So, effectively your surly-man is broad shouldered man.

    - Jeff

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  • Michael W Richards
    replied
    Originally posted by JeffHamm View Post

    That seems strange given that in post 310 you had this:
    "Liz Stride is waiting to meet someone in or from the club and decides to freshen her mouth a bit, or she is there to enter the club as a hired cleaner,.."at work among the Jews", .. and she is approached by a surly man trying to negotiate a quickie. She tells him to F off. He pokes her in the chest with menace. She then turns to head out the gates to wait on the street in front of the passageway, and the surly man grabs her scarf, twists it and pulls back, she is off balance and while bent and twisted and choking, the surly man slides a knife across her throat and lets go of the scarf. She falls, her legs drawn into her body..and she bleeds out."

    Which describes surly man (after BSM has left) doing exactly what you describe as a fantasy above ("The idea that someone else entered the scene after BSM left and then killed Liz is quite frankly a part of a fantasy...").

    Or do you mean something else?

    - Jeff
    Im assuming you've never seen my suggestion that I believe Israel Schwartz was probably there that night, that he attended the meeting, and when he left via the kitchen door..since the one to Berner was locked supposedly, he likely saw roughly the same altercation he described, only going on inside the gates, inside the passageway, roughly where she is cut. When he is located on Sunday he is asked if his statement might place this event outside the gates so the club can avoid any messy suspicions. Maybe draw some attention to the growing antisemitism too. His "theatrical" bent might explain some aspects of the story. Fled incontinently might be one, who would admit to that when no-one saw them? Why say you peed your pants? To add drama.

    The way it appears the most probable scenario based on the existing evidence and after vetting statements based on potential biases or self preservation, I think that Israel Schwartz attended the meeting, had a few songs, then as he was leaving he sees a woman arguing with a man just inside the left gate, maybe he is poking her in the chest while she has her back to the wall. He thought she was looking to earn some street money, and has been informed she isn't interested. Knowing Strides history and known temper, maybe she told him to piss off. Israel slips by the 2 and out the gates to the street, while just inside the gates the man cuts Stride while choking her with her own scarf, and drops her on the ground. 12:35-12:40. Louis pulls up, sees the body and likely the thug, and takes him into the club, and calls for help. Eagle returns to the club. He stated that he was afraid of the sight of blood, but also that he ran "pell mell" from upstairs when Louis called for him. Contradictory. Anyway, the men in the club come down to the passageway. Louis sends Issac and some men out separately, Spooner sees 2 of them and heads to the club with them.Spooner and the men try to determine if she is breathing, has a pulse, and discussions go back and forth about what this means and how this needs to be handled. Brown sees the young couple. 12:40-12:45. Fanny goes to her door again at 12:50 and sees a man pass the gates, look in, and keep going, around 12:55. She is there until 1, and then goes inside. Eagle and Diemshitz head out. Someone takes Louis's horse and cart to stable in George Yard, Fanny hears this. 1:05. Men return with police. 1:05-1:10

    The missing events as per some witness statements, like Israels street altercation, or Louis arriving at "precisely 1", or Eagles "couldn't be sure a body wasnt there" when he arrived are by a friend of William Wess's, the club steward, and the speaker that night for the meeting respectively. A friend of Wess's and likely the Socialist club itself, and 2 men who make a living at the club. Lave, the man who also saw nothing at 12:40, lived in one of the cottages in that passageway.

    The men, and woman, who create a different story with their statements have nothing to hide, nothing to fear, and no reason to tell anything but exactly what they remember. 4 of them remembered being in the passageway at 12:40-12:45.
    Last edited by Michael W Richards; 11-14-2019, 10:57 AM.

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  • drstrange169
    replied
    >>Too bad he didn't have any influence on the people who ran the Inquest then.<<

    Or perhaps he or his superiors did.

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  • JeffHamm
    replied
    Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
    The idea that someone else entered the scene after BSM left and then killed Liz is quite frankly a part of a fantasy that also includes interruptions that never took place within any known evidence. Liz Stride was attacked and had a mortal single cut made in 2 seconds, that's all that was done, and by the evidence, all that was intended.
    That seems strange given that in post 310 you had this:
    "Liz Stride is waiting to meet someone in or from the club and decides to freshen her mouth a bit, or she is there to enter the club as a hired cleaner,.."at work among the Jews", .. and she is approached by a surly man trying to negotiate a quickie. She tells him to F off. He pokes her in the chest with menace. She then turns to head out the gates to wait on the street in front of the passageway, and the surly man grabs her scarf, twists it and pulls back, she is off balance and while bent and twisted and choking, the surly man slides a knife across her throat and lets go of the scarf. She falls, her legs drawn into her body..and she bleeds out."

    Which describes surly man (after BSM has left) doing exactly what you describe as a fantasy above ("The idea that someone else entered the scene after BSM left and then killed Liz is quite frankly a part of a fantasy...").

    Or do you mean something else?

    - Jeff

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  • c.d.
    replied
    Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post

    And yet the well known fantasist Mrs Mortimer said;
    "my opinion is that he interrupted the murderer, who must have made his escape immediately under cover of the cart.
    Well we all know that if Fanny says something that you can take it to the bank. No questions asked.

    c.d.

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  • Joshua Rogan
    replied
    Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
    The idea that someone else entered the scene after BSM left and then killed Liz is quite frankly a part of a fantasy that also includes interruptions that never took place within any known evidence. Liz Stride was attacked and had a mortal single cut made in 2 seconds, that's all that was done, and by the evidence, all that was intended.
    And yet the well known fantasist Mrs Mortimer said;
    "my opinion is that he interrupted the murderer, who must have made his escape immediately under cover of the cart.

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  • c.d.
    replied
    Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
    The idea that someone else entered the scene after BSM left and then killed Liz is quite frankly a part of a fantasy that also includes interruptions that never took place within any known evidence. Liz Stride was attacked and had a mortal single cut made in 2 seconds, that's all that was done, and by the evidence, all that was intended.
    Yes, but like I said this "fantasy" was given credence by Swanson a veteran Scotland Yard detective who had all the evidence available to him.

    You seem to place an interruption in the same category as aliens landing when in fact interruptions are common.

    c.d.

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  • c.d.
    replied
    Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post

    Too bad he didn't have any influence on the people who ran the Inquest then.
    So true. If he had then maybe Fanny Mortimer would have been called.

    c.d.

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  • Michael W Richards
    replied
    The idea that someone else entered the scene after BSM left and then killed Liz is quite frankly a part of a fantasy that also includes interruptions that never took place within any known evidence. Liz Stride was attacked and had a mortal single cut made in 2 seconds, that's all that was done, and by the evidence, all that was intended.

    Leave a comment:


  • Michael W Richards
    replied
    Originally posted by c.d. View Post

    Well Swanson didn't think it was "nonsense" and allowed for that possibility in his report.

    c.d.
    Too bad he didn't have any influence on the people who ran the Inquest then.

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  • Abby Normal
    replied
    why don't we just say the ripper was a phantom and call it a day. lol

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  • Harry D
    replied
    Originally posted by c.d. View Post

    Hello Harry,

    Well how are you defining "roughed up?" She certainly picked the wrong profession if a little shove from a drunk made her want to call it a night. I would venture to guess that she had endured much worse than the B.S. man during her time on the streets. Par for the course.

    c.d.
    The man tried to drag her away, then pushed her to the ground. I'm sure that kind of thing was an occupational hazard for girls on the game, but she was bound to have been shaken by it. I can't see her letting her guard down inside a dark yard with another man.

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  • c.d.
    replied
    Originally posted by Harry D View Post

    Hey, CD. Do I believe that moments after being roughed up by someone, Stride willingly retreated to a dark alleyway with another man? No, I can't buy into that.
    Hello Harry,

    Well how are you defining "roughed up?" She certainly picked the wrong profession if a little shove from a drunk made her want to call it a night. I would venture to guess that she had endured much worse than the B.S. man during her time on the streets. Par for the course.

    c.d.

    Leave a comment:

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