The Schwartz/BS Man situation - My opinion only

[drstrange169]

>> Then we have some issues don't we? Fanny never saw him or heard him and she was at the door until 1am, and we have Heschburg, Gillen, Kozebroski and Spooner saying that the body was discovered at 12:45 and that Louis was already there.<<

Letchfield's sister was also at her door for the period before one o'clock.

On the other hand, Hoshberg, or whatever his name was, and Spooner's 12:45 times have been totally discredited.

Spooner admits he was still outside the Beehive at 1 o'clock and that time fits with all the other witnesses.

Hoshberg said he was awakened by police whistles and Lamb would not have blown a whistle until after 1 o'clock. He also points out he was only guessing time.

[drstrange169]

>> Would Smith be responsible for ID'ng Wess in your mind? I don't see that myself.<<

Wess was a high profile agitator in a club that was watched by police. Part of any patrolling PC's duty on that particular beat would have been to keep on eye on the club and it's members.

[drstrange169]

>>And that's not enough to raise your suspicions? The fact that everyone and his dog who saw absolutely nothing of any importance was called but the two people who probably did see something ,namely Schwartz and Packer were not called ?<<

It's clear from police records that they considered Packer of no value, for what ever reason those police records also show, Schwartz was considered of interest til,l at least, one month later.

So nothing odd about Packer being dismissed, but Schwartz is a true conundrum.

[Busy Beaver]

So Schwartz saw Liz being pushed into the yard by BS Man. BS man pushed Liz to the ground in the yard. BS man may have been trying to mug Liz.. BS Man saw Schwartz and called out "Lipski". Schawartz runs with Pipeman following him. BS man may have tried to mug Liz and Pipeman may have been an accomplice and since they both got seen, they legged it. No sooner do they leave, poor Liz gets up, breathless and takes a mint cachoo to get her breath back and then along comes you know who and murders her. And as the Ripper is so good at not being seen, he gets away yet again.

[drstrange169]

Interesting factiod, it was considered a sin by some Rabbis for a Jewish woman to carry cachous outside the home.

[Joshua Rogan]

So is that in "the street" or not? If it is, I repeat my question...why does Swanson use that "tried" and "but"?; if it is not in "the street"...you see what I'm asking?

Yes Dave, I do see your point - technically the footway is part of the street. For my money, though, Swanson's "but" (no s******ing at the back) is implying that when Liz hit the deck, the man failed in his objective. Which, I suspect, was to take her with him down the street.

[John G]

A footway is a pedestrian pathway which runs along the side of the road. Stride wasn't found by the side of the road but in the private alleyway by the side of the club.

"Footway means a way comprised in a highway which also comprises a carriageway, being a way over which public have right of way on foot only." (Highways Act, 1980, s 329.

[Wickerman]

>> Diemschutz made reference to the Bakers clock on the corner of Berner st. (presumably at Commercial Rd. end?), that he passed on the way home.<<

The clock was on a Tobacconist shop, corner of Commercial and Berner,.....

I know that, it didn't sound right when I was copying it down. I even looked on the Goad Plan to see if there was a Baker's shop at the top of Berner st. Thats the Daily Telegraph, every other major paper got it right.
Probably an error in transcribing shorthand Tobacconist into long hand, such is life....

If Schwartz's story were true, he propably used the same time source. Being such a prominent and nearby clock, the Mortimer household may even have used it as a means of setting the time in their home. PC Smith would also have presumably used it as a time source.

Interestingly, the tobacco shop also housed a make shift synagogue in a shed out the back. That particular assembly was known for celebrating a Jewish holiday in the days prior to the murder by offering free beer!

Again, if Schwartz's story was true, he may have been coming from there that night.

I don't normally get involved in whether Schwartz was truthful, there's something about his story that we are missing.
Swanson seems to have trusted him whereas the coroner didn't, or didn't think his story was of any value.

[drstrange169]

>> .. it didn't sound right when I was copying it down. I even looked on the Goad Plan to see if there was a Baker's shop at the top of Berner st.<<

Yes, it's a weird newspaper typo. The shop on the other side was a "Provisions" shop. The nearest baker's was probably in Berner Street run by the Kosminskis.




>>I don't normally get involved in whether Schwartz was truthful, there's something about his story that we are missing.<<

I tend to want to believe Schwartz, but the evidence just doesn't support him.

[Joshua Rogan]

I know that, it didn't sound right when I was copying it down. I even looked on the Goad Plan to see if there was a Baker's shop at the top of Berner st. Thats the Daily Telegraph, every other major paper got it right.
Probably an error in transcribing shorthand Tobacconist into long hand, such is life..

'baccy shop?

[Michael W Richards]

Michael, please, Kozebrodski does NOT say "alone". He just says what "he" did.
Kozebrodski &amp; Diemschutz were friends, the first man Diemschutz ran into the club to get was his friend Isaac Kozebrodski:

"A member of the club named Kozebrodski returned with Diemsschütz into the court,..."
Also, in another press account:
"A member of the club named Kozebrodski, but familiarly known as Isaacs, returned with Diemshitz into the court,.."

Kozebrodski went for a policeman:

"I went to look for a policeman at the request of Diemschitz or some other member of the club, but I took the direction towards Grove-street and could not find one."


Diemschutz says much the same thing, He tells the inquest what "He" did, except he includes returning with Spooner:

"I ran off at once for the police. I could not find a constable in the direction which I took, so I shouted out "Police!" as loudly as I could. A man whom I met in Grove- street returned with me, and when we reached the yard he took hold of the head of the deceased. As he lifted it up I saw the wound in the throat."


Spooner tells us he met TWO Jews running towards him along Fairclough, towards Grove:

"...I saw two Jews come running along and shouting out "Murder" and "Police." They then ran as far as Grove-street and turned back. I stopped them and asked what was the matter. They replied, "A woman has been murdered." I then went round with them to Berner-street,.....and I lifted up the chin of the deceased with my hand."

The two Jews were Diemschutz &amp; Kozebrodski.

Eagle tells us he ran up to Commercial Rd. to look for a policeman, but Diemschutz, with another man went along Fairclough:

"Dienishitz, the club steward, and another member going in the opposite direction down Fairclough- street."

The "other man" was Isaac Kozebrodski.

Seven months later Diemschutz &amp; Kozebrodski were both on bail for assault:
"Lewis Diemschitz [Louis Diemschutz], 27, and Isaac Kozebrodski, 19, surrendered to their bail to answer an indictment for making a riot and rout, and for assaulting various persons."

They were friends, Michael.

Jon,

First off..."

About twenty minutes to one this morning Mr. Diemschitz called me out to the yard. He told me there was something in the yard, and told me to come and see what it was. When we had got outside he struck a match, and when we looked down on the ground we could see a long stream of blood. It was running down the gutter from the direction of the gate, and reached to the back door of the club. I should think there was blood in the gutter for a distance of five or six yards. I went to look for a policeman at the request of Diemschitz or some other member of the club, but I took the direction towards Grove-street and could not find one. I afterwards went into the Commercial-road along with Eagle, and found two officers."

It seems fairly clear to me that Issac K doesnt agree with what you stated he said. The time is well before what Louis says he arrived at, clearly Issac K says "I" when referring to his initial search...sent by Louis..who mentions nothing about this, and Eagle and Louis went different directions and Issac K says he returned with Eagle via the commercial rd route, not Louis. I can see that it doesn't trouble you when people don't mention other people that you presume were with them at the time, it does trouble me though. Lave and Eagle state by their times that they were at the gates at the very same time, yet neither sees the other.

The simple facts are that within the witness statements there are conflicting times for when the discovery was made, who was there, what happened next and what people were in the immediate area from 12:35 until 1am. The club witnesses alone have an almost 20 minute difference in the time of their knowledge of the woman in the passageway, the overwhelming majority of them give a time that is just before the earliest estimate of Liz Strides cut. Meaning, if Im correct, Liz is cut at or very near to the time Louis arrives. Before 1am.

[Scott Nelson]

Schwartz was a police plant.

[Sam Flynn]

Schwartz was a police plant.

Police plant? Is that a copper beech?

[Wickerman]

[B]

All the above you mention might be described today as a "young woman".

This was a trained journalist decribing a "young girl". A VERY different thing.

Mrs Kennedy was described as a woman by one reporter:
"A woman named Kennedy was on the night of the murder staying with her parents...."

Yet, in another report she is described as a girl:
"Detective-Inspector Abberline has interviewed a girl named Kennedy,..."

The difference in "woman" and "girl" can be explained by the difference in the ages of the journalist reporting the story.

Caroline Maxwell, described Mary Kelly using both terms:
"I believe the deceased was an unfortunate girl. She was a young woman who never associated with anyone much,..."

These were different times, we can't judge what they said a century ago by the standards we use today.

[Wickerman]

Jon,

First off..."

About twenty minutes to one this morning Mr. Diemschitz called me out to the yard. He told me there was something in the yard, and told me to come and see what it was. When we had got outside he struck a match, and when we looked down on the ground we could see a long stream of blood. It was running down the gutter from the direction of the gate, and reached to the back door of the club. I should think there was blood in the gutter for a distance of five or six yards. I went to look for a policeman at the request of Diemschitz or some other member of the club, but I took the direction towards Grove-street and could not find one. I afterwards went into the Commercial-road along with Eagle, and found two officers."

Michael, when we have conflicting times, it is always better to be guided by the sequence of events.
In the last post I made to you, we could remove all the times and just go by a sequence of events, and the story would not change.
Trying to force these estimated times into some form of coherent sequence is often impossible, but we can always rely on a sequence of events.
'A' happened before 'B', which happened before 'C', never fails.