Why did Pipe Man chase Israel Schwartz away?

[Losmandris]

Hi Tristan,

I agree with you that BS man trying to pull Stride away from the yard rather than into the yard is a vital piece of evidence against him being the killer. I can't see any evidence for Eagle being BS Man, and I think that Brown was looking at the young couple mentioned by Mortimer. When it is reported by Schwartz that Pipeman was shouting a warning to BS Man, I think he was shouting a warning at BS Man. I think he saw Schwartz off, and then warned BS Man off, and assumed the role of white night to escort Stride to the safety of the club and then......well you know the rest. The question that is always avoided in these discussions is....where is Parcel Man?

Cheers, George

I certainly agree in that I thinking JtR appears as a knight in shining armour to help Stride after the 'assault'. Pipeman seems like an obvious choice but could be anyone. Someone unseen even who appears out of the shadows. Point is, I believe that is how Stride ends up in the yard, she takes a man there who has just helped her. I dont really buy this 'chances of someone being attacked twice' argument because to me the incident with BS just doesn't seem like an attack just shoving someone off. Bad yes. but in that area, probably pretty common.

[c.d.]

Very good question? As a killer he was pretty brazen and likely seen before killing Chapman, Eddowes and Kelly, so why not Stride? Totally get your point though. Berner street did seem to be incredibly busy that night!

I was referring to the B.S. man being seen by Schwartz in an altercation with Stride who is found dead shortly after. And being seen by Pipeman as well if they were not together. Had he simply walked away after being seen by Schwartz he would only have been guilty of pushing a woman.

c.d.

[Aethelwulf]

Very good question? As a killer he was pretty brazen and likely seen before killing Chapman, Eddowes and Kelly, so why not Stride? Totally get your point though. Berner street did seem to be incredibly busy that night!

But he's hardly been seen at close quarters to get a good description, or doing anything that out of the ordinary for the time I suspect. The only defining feature is 'broad shoulders' - hardy going to lead the police direct to his door. If BS man had been seen holding a knife to stride he might reasonably assume that the man watching him might go and find a policeman, and leave straightaway. Schwartz didn't know there was going to be a murder so there was no need for him to follow anything up. The key question is why did stride go into the yard after the scuffle. The only logical answer, unless she was physically pulled in there, must be that she knew BS man and still felt comfortable with him.

I don't think you can rule BS man out because he seems to have pushed stride away from the yard. She could have been trying to get away, he could have been pulling her towards the yard and lost his grip, giving the appearance of her being pushed went she just fell away from him

Also, we don't know for certain the scuffle was as bad tempered as it might have appeared to Schwartz.

[c.d.]

If BS man had been seen holding a knife to stride he might reasonably assume that the man watching him might go and find a policeman, and leave straightaway. Schwartz didn't know there was going to be a murder so there was no need for him to follow anything up.

But according to the B.S. man as her killer camp, this was a "brutal assault" and according to Schwartz, Stride screamed. If true, then I can't dismiss the idea that the B.S. man would have reasonably believed that Schwartz ran off to find the nearest P.C.

The key question is why did stride go into the yard after the scuffle. The only logical answer, unless she was physically pulled in there, must be that she knew BS man and still felt comfortable with him.

But again according to the B.S. man as her killer camp, this was a brutal assault. In addition, she would have seen the B.S. man apparently threaten Schwartz. It is hard to believe she would willingly go into the yard with him under those circumstances. At the very least, a beating would seem inevitable. How could there be any kind of comfort level?

On the other hand, if the whole B.S. man encounter was simply an accident or unintentional then I could see an apology and an offer of more money leading her into the yard.

But a question for you, if Stride was dragged to her death, how likely is it that she would have held on to the packet of cachous without them breaking open?

c.d.

[Aethelwulf]

[I]

On the other hand, if the whole B.S. man encounter was simply an accident or unintentional then I could see an apology and an offer of more money leading her into the yard.

That is what I mean when I said we don't know for certain the scuffle was as bad tempered as it might have appeared to Schwartz.

She may well have gone into the yard despite the scuffle. After all, we know that Farmer willingly went with her attacker (undoubtedly Bury) despite knowing that he had previously knocked her about a year before. Also think about Ellen Bury - after a year of being knocked about she's out looking for her missing husband at 5.30 am on a dark December morning. What does she get in return - smacked in the face three times and still goes off to Dundee with him.

A shove to the ground does not mean she wouldn't go into the yard if she knew him

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Also, could you explain why Stride would have seen this BS character as a potential client, and decided to pester him? What on earth for? Now you might come up with very good answers for these questions, but at this point it seems to me that you're trying a bit too hard to make sense of Schwartz's story.

Doesn't every woman who is soliciting see a man as a potential client and attempt to interact with him as opposed to smiling coyly, showing some leg and hoping he will approach her?

c.d.

What on earth for?

Andrew, didn't your parents have "the talk" with you?

c.d.

As a youngster, I learned that prostitutes have sex for money. Stride was found to be carrying no money on her person. She doesn't seem to have been soliciting, and so had no apparent reason for ever standing in that gateway. I don't believe Schwartz's story.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Hey Abby

I have just been listening to Tom Westcott on Rippercast talking about Stride and what he says about Jame Brown being the last person seeing Stride alive, later than 12.45. He sees a man with Stride, who has all the appearances of pipe smoking man. I tend to agree with this. I think pipe smoking man is JtR potentially. Plus also struggle with the fact BS is seen pushing Stride into the street, not dragging her into the yard. How did you explain that? He pushes her over, then picks her up, drags her to the yard and kills her? Or something along those lines. Love to know your thoughts on that?

I agree it doesn't make much sense. Consider the relevant sentence from Swanson's report ...

The man tried to pull the woman into the street, but he turned her round & threw her down on the footway & the woman screamed three times, but not very loudly.

Tried? Tried and failed? So a broad shouldered man tried but apparently failed to pull a slightly built woman who was standing on the footway, into the street. Excuse me for putting it like this, but this is where everyone should check that their BS detector is functioning.

Let's try for a more realistic scenario. The body was discovered. Members of the club begin filtering outside. Someone on the street recognizes there is some sort of situation going on in the yard, and an attempt is made to cross the gateway. A club member resists this attempt, and an altercation ensues. Someone is thrown to the ground. Once it is known that a murder appears to have occurred, the word 'Lipski' is called. In other words, Schwartz attempted to place post-murder events in the pre-murder world, and for the most part, he succeeded.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

But he's hardly been seen at close quarters to get a good description, or doing anything that out of the ordinary for the time I suspect. The only defining feature is 'broad shoulders' - hardy going to lead the police direct to his door. If BS man had been seen holding a knife to stride he might reasonably assume that the man watching him might go and find a policeman, and leave straightaway. Schwartz didn't know there was going to be a murder so there was no need for him to follow anything up. The key question is why did stride go into the yard after the scuffle. The only logical answer, unless she was physically pulled in there, must be that she knew BS man and still felt comfortable with him.

This interpretation is compatible with the Star report (also in other papers) of an assault on the murdered woman - the observers (plural) believed the quarrelling man and woman to have been husband and wife. Schwartz told Abberline that no one else was to be seen on the street but the victim and the two other men. So who were these unseen or unmentioned observers? Was Pipeman one of them? If yes, then Pipeman might have ended up in the yard and witnessed the woman he had seen quarrelling with the man. If found and cleared, it was probably because he was on Reid's list of 28.

[Aethelwulf]

Let's try for a more realistic scenario. The body was discovered. Members of the club begin filtering outside. Someone on the street recognizes there is some sort of situation going on in the yard, and an attempt is made to cross the gateway. A club member resists this attempt, and an altercation ensues. Someone is thrown to the ground. Once it is known that a murder appears to have occurred, the word 'Lipski' is called. In other words, Schwartz attempted to place post-murder events in the pre-murder world, and for the most part, he succeeded.

Spotted a typo here - what you actually meant was: 'Let's try for a more unrealistic scenario'!

[c.d.]

Tried? Tried and failed? So a broad shouldered man tried but apparently failed to pull a slightly built woman who was standing on the footway, into the street. Excuse me for putting it like this, but this is where everyone should check that their BS detector is functioning.

But isn't this simply Schwartz's interpretation of what he thought he saw? We have no way of actually knowing the B.S. man's intention. It is certainly possible that he said get out of here bitch and she said ok, ok, I'm going. Walked away but then waited till he left and then returned to where she had been. Or the B.S. man could have simply accepted that she wouldn't go with him and left.

You can't determine what the whole movie is like from the first few minutes.

c.d.

[c.d.]

As a youngster, I learned that prostitutes have sex for money. Stride was found to be carrying no money on her person. She doesn't seem to have been soliciting, and so had no apparent reason for ever standing in that gateway. I don't believe Schwartz's story.

It's possible that her killer might have taken any money that she had. Just because there was no apparent reason we know of doesn't mean that she didn't have a reason for being there. Whether she was actively soliciting is a moot point since we have no way of knowing her response if approached.

c.d.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Spotted a typo here - what you actually meant was: 'Let's try for a more unrealistic scenario'!

It's a scenario that is fully compatible with this Echo report, which is also set in a post murder world ...

A MAN PURSUED. - SAID TO BE THE MURDERER.

In the course of conversation (says the journalist) the secretary mentioned the fact that the murderer had no doubt been disturbed in his work, as about a quarter to one o'clock on Sunday morning he was seen- or, at least, a man whom the public prefer to regard as the murderer- being chased by another man along Fairclough-street, which runs across Berner-street close to the Club, and which is intersected on the right by Providence-street, Brunswick-street, and Christian-st., and on the left by Batty-street and Grove-street, the two latter running up into Commercial-road. The man pursued escaped, however, and the secretary of the Club cannot remember the name of the man who gave chase, but he is not a member of their body. Complaint is also made about the difficulty there was experienced in obtaining a policeman, and it is alleged that from the time the body was discovered fifteen minutes had elapsed before a constable could be called from Commercial-road. This charge against the police, however, requires confirmation. There is, notwithstanding the number who have visited the scene, a complete absence of excitement, although naturally this fresh addition to the already formidable list of mysterious murders forms the general subject of conversation.

The man was pursued after the murder - contradicting Schwartz, and was regarded as being the murderer - also contradicting Schwartz. So who was lying - Schwartz, Wess, or both of them?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Tried? Tried and failed? So a broad shouldered man tried but apparently failed to pull a slightly built woman who was standing on the footway, into the street. Excuse me for putting it like this, but this is where everyone should check that their BS detector is functioning.

But isn't this simply Schwartz's interpretation of what he thought he saw?

Yes. Less than a day later he had 'interpreted' very differently ...

The Star: The Hungarian saw him put his hand on her shoulder and push her back into the passage ...

Which version do you prefer?

We have no way of actually knowing the B.S. man's intention.

The intentions of BS man are not just unknowable - the concept itself is barely logical. He only exists within a story given by one man, and we don't even know the identity of the man who gave the story. Having said that, it's a story that does make for good conversation.

It is certainly possible that he said get out of here bitch and she said ok, ok, I'm going. Walked away but then waited till he left and then returned to where she had been. Or the B.S. man could have simply accepted that she wouldn't go with him and left.

You can't determine what the whole movie is like from the first few minutes.

c.d.

The first few minutes? I'm told (repeatedly) that the whole incident would have lasted no more than 30 seconds. About how many minutes in total do you suppose Stride was at or in the vicinity of the gateway, unnoticed by any witness on record?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

As a youngster, I learned that prostitutes have sex for money. Stride was found to be carrying no money on her person. She doesn't seem to have been soliciting, and so had no apparent reason for ever standing in that gateway. I don't believe Schwartz's story.

It's possible that her killer might have taken any money that she had.

Do you mean he might have interrupted his getaway, after being interrupted, to go through her pockets looking for money? Or do you mean he stole the money while she was still alive, without her screaming not very loudly, let alone putting up a fight? If the later, did she then go quietly with him into the intense darkness of the laneway, or is that where you suppose the theft occurred?

Just because there was no apparent reason we know of doesn't mean that she didn't have a reason for being there. Whether she was actively soliciting is a moot point since we have no way of knowing her response if approached.

c.d.

No doubt many people have and will continue to dream up reasons for her standing in that gateway, but the lack of money on her person suggests she was not soliciting in the period leading up to the murder. Consequently, Israel Schwartz's claims must be regarded with at least some suspicion.

[GBinOz]

I think that Stride was having an affair with a married man. I think he was with her at the Bricklayers Arms and that he bought her grapes from Packer. He then picked up pamphlets from the printing office and became Parcel Man.
[Coroner to Wess] How do you know that you finally left at a quarter-past twelve o'clock? - Because of the time when I reached my lodgings. Before leaving I went into the yard, and thence to the printing-office, in order to leave some literature there.

Parcelman returned to the street with Stride to listen to the music and was seen with her there by PC Smith. One or both then felt the need to use the toilets and Stride was waiting for him to return when confronted by BSman. He tried to pull her out of the yard, she pulled against him and asked him to let go, and he did, and she overbalanced and fell. She got up and remonstrated with him which Schwartz mistook for, or was mistranslated as, three screams, but not very loud.

BSman shouts "Lipski" at Schwartz and Pipeman shouts a warning AT BSman (leave that woman alone or I'll come down there and .... ) and sees Schwartz off.

Bifurcation commences here:

Scernario 1: Pipeman then walks towards BSman who is intimidated and leaves. Pipeman consoles Stride and offers to see her safely to the club side door. She accepts his offer and is murdered after a few steps in that direction. Just as she has fallen to the ground Parcelman emerges from the toilet alcove and Pipeman flees. Parcelman quickly assesses that Stride is fatally injured and the chase through the streets described in The Echo begins. Parcelman does not come forward afterwards as he is married and does not want to be "outed".

Scenario 2: Pipeman departs with Schwartz and BSman, who is intimidated by Pipeman's threat, is unsure if he will return. Parcelman has emerged from the toilet alcove just in time to see Stride on the ground being stood over by a man (BSman) who is shouting at and being threatened by another man (Pipeman). The shouting stops, BSman departs and Pipeman calls to Stride from the shadows. She goes to him, and he murders her, thinking it will be blamed on BSman, but is interrupted by someone moving about in the club and makes his escape, with his footsteps possibly being heard by Mortimer. Diemshitz arrives to find the body.

There, that should do it, and with not one time to argue about. Pure conjecture and speculation of course, but it does explain why Stride might have been in the yard, and accounts for the whereabouts of all the players named by Smith and Schwartz. Scenario 1 is my preferred option, but Stride's companion at the Bricklayers Arms was said to have "strange eyes", which seems to be a recurring theme amongst suspects.

Cheers, George