Why did Pipe Man chase Israel Schwartz away?

[GBinOz]

For me I believe JtR watches the 'altercation' and arrives on the scene as a bit of knight in shining armor/ready punter. I think BS is seen by stride as a potential client, she pesters him a bit, he has no of it and pushes her off. JtR picks her up and brushes her down and she leads him into the yard. She offers him a cachous or does something to freak him out, so he just cuts her throat before rapidly departing.

Hi Tristan,

I agree with most of your scenario. If BS Man is rejected there appears to be limited alternatives available. So who do you believe finally held the knife that cut Lizzie's throat?
Pipe man
Parcel Man
A third person, identity unknown..... or to be named.....perhaps you have someone in mind?

Cheers, George

[NotBlamedForNothing]

For me I believe JtR watches the 'altercation' and arrives on the scene as a bit of knight in shining armor/ready punter. I think BS is seen by stride as a potential client, she pesters him a bit, he has no of it and pushes her off. JtR picks her up and brushes her down and she leads him into the yard. She offers him a cachous or does something to freak him out, so he just cuts her throat before rapidly departing.

Is this JtR also Pipeman? Because if it is, perhaps you could explain why Pipeman does not appear on the Met's apprehensions sought list. Also, could you explain why Stride would have seen this BS character as a potential client, and decided to pester him? What on earth for? Now you might come up with very good answers for these questions, but at this point it seems to me that you're trying a bit too hard to make sense of Schwartz's story.

For everyone else, if Pipeman had possibly chased Schwartz away (as per the title of this thread), he could have been an accomplice of the murderer, and so the police must have wanted to talk to him. Yet he is not on that list. Why not? Well if he was found and cleared, we are left to wonder why there is no record of this, from any source. We would also wonder why he fled the scene, as Schwartz himself claimed to, when this snippet from the Star suggests otherwise:

The police have been told that a man, aged between 35 and 40 years of age, and of fair complexion, was seen to throw the woman murdered in Berner-street to the ground. Those who saw it thought that it was a man and his wife quarrelling, and no notice was taken of it.

If Pipeman claimed to have neither fled nor chased away another man, then Schwartz's story would seem to be false. Obviously, Pipeman must have been identified and questioned for him to have denied running from the scene. Yet if that was what had occurred, how could the police have known which of the two men (Pipeman, Schwartz) was telling the truth? A clue may be contained in the Star quote (above). How did the person whose statement was the basis for the report, know that the woman thrown to the ground was also the woman murdered?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

The Foreman - Do you not think that the woman would have dropped the packet of cachous altogether if she had been thrown to the ground before the injuries were inflicted?
Phillips - That is an inference which the jury would be perfectly entitled to draw.

Regards Darryl

Darryl,
what inferences (if any) do you draw from this exchange? Was the foreman an avid reader of the Star? Was Dr Phillips also? Either or both may have been, but the Star is not inquest evidence. So it would seem that both men appear to know of at least the broad details of Schwartz's police statement. Yet how is that possible? The only other possibility would seem to be that Schwartz actually did participate in the inquest. What do you think?

[c.d.]

Also, could you explain why Stride would have seen this BS character as a potential client, and decided to pester him? What on earth for? Now you might come up with very good answers for these questions, but at this point it seems to me that you're trying a bit too hard to make sense of Schwartz's story.

Doesn't every woman who is soliciting see a man as a potential client and attempt to interact with him as opposed to smiling coyly, showing some leg and hoping he will approach her?

c.d.

[c.d.]

What on earth for?

Andrew, didn't your parents have "the talk" with you?

c.d.

[Losmandris]

hi Los
possibly but there is just no evidence for this phantom ripper. BS man, seen by schwarz, fits the other witness descriptions that night (peaked cap and all)-Marshall, lawende and co, possibly smith. To me there really is no mystery here-BS/peaked cap man was the ripper he killed stride and eddowes and was seen with both victims shortly before he killed them. he was a bit agitated by all this so shortly after wrote the gsg and left the bloody apron.

Hey Abby

I have just been listening to Tom Westcott on Rippercast talking about Stride and what he says about Jame Brown being the last person seeing Stride alive, later than 12.45. He sees a man with Stride, who has all the appearances of pipe smoking man. I tend to agree with this. I think pipe smoking man is JtR potentially. Plus also struggle with the fact BS is seen pushing Stride into the street, not dragging her into the yard. How did you explain that? He pushes her over, then picks her up, drags her to the yard and kills her? Or something along those lines. Love to know your thoughts on that?

[Losmandris]

Hi Tristan,

I agree with most of your scenario. If BS Man is rejected there appears to be limited alternatives available. So who do you believe finally held the knife that cut Lizzie's throat?
Pipe man
Parcel Man
A third person, identity unknown..... or to be named.....perhaps you have someone in mind?

Cheers, George

Hi George,

As mentioned above to Abby I think pipe man is our man. He could well have been running over to Stride, instead of chasing after Schwatz. According to James Brown, he see someone looking similar to pipe man after 12.45. He is fairly certain on timings as he had a clock in his house, which he check just before leaving. Of course we cant rely on that totally but does make you wonder? I think the 'assault' on Stride by BS man gets blown out of proportion. Tom Westcott hints that BS man could have been Morris Eagle, which does in someways work. What do you think?

[Losmandris]

Is this JtR also Pipeman? Because if it is, perhaps you could explain why Pipeman does not appear on the Met's apprehensions sought list. Also, could you explain why Stride would have seen this BS character as a potential client, and decided to pester him? What on earth for? Now you might come up with very good answers for these questions, but at this point it seems to me that you're trying a bit too hard to make sense of Schwartz's story.

For everyone else, if Pipeman had possibly chased Schwartz away (as per the title of this thread), he could have been an accomplice of the murderer, and so the police must have wanted to talk to him. Yet he is not on that list. Why not? Well if he was found and cleared, we are left to wonder why there is no record of this, from any source. We would also wonder why he fled the scene, as Schwartz himself claimed to, when this snippet from the Star suggests otherwise:

The police have been told that a man, aged between 35 and 40 years of age, and of fair complexion, was seen to throw the woman murdered in Berner-street to the ground. Those who saw it thought that it was a man and his wife quarrelling, and no notice was taken of it.

If Pipeman claimed to have neither fled nor chased away another man, then Schwartz's story would seem to be false. Obviously, Pipeman must have been identified and questioned for him to have denied running from the scene. Yet if that was what had occurred, how could the police have known which of the two men (Pipeman, Schwartz) was telling the truth? A clue may be contained in the Star quote (above). How did the person whose statement was the basis for the report, know that the woman thrown to the ground was also the woman murdered?

I believe he could well have been pipe man. of course not 100% yes but pretty good chance. In my eyes more likely than BS man. No idea why pipe man does not appear in the list. I have no agenda here or theory I am going to die in a ditch over. Purely speculating and focusing on things that either make sense to me or could provide a straight forward explanation, not one convoluted in some conspiracy theory. Sorry if I am being a little harsh, I just think that there must be a simpler theory as to who killed stride than many of the theories that keep on popping up time and time again on this site. Any discussion Stride always seems to end in utter madness I find.

[c.d.]

Pipe Man as her killer or the B.S. man, either way you have the same question, why does he go on to kill after being seen?

c.d.

[Abby Normal]

Hey Abby

I have just been listening to Tom Westcott on Rippercast talking about Stride and what he says about Jame Brown being the last person seeing Stride alive, later than 12.45. He sees a man with Stride, who has all the appearances of pipe smoking man. I tend to agree with this. I think pipe smoking man is JtR potentially. Plus also struggle with the fact BS is seen pushing Stride into the street, not dragging her into the yard. How did you explain that? He pushes her over, then picks her up, drags her to the yard and kills her? Or something along those lines. Love to know your thoughts on that?

Hi Los
IMHO I dont think Brown saw the ripper and stride-i think he saw another couple. The man dosnt really fit the description of peaked cap man all the other witnesses saw that night including Lawende and company and dosnt fit time wise. there were other couples about that night-I think Brown saw one of them.

i dont really place much on Pipeman-Ive often wondered if he wasnt added by schwartz to help explain away his less then brave behavior. and if he was real-so what? we just have a man mentioned by a witness who seems to either be also running away or was confused and followed schwartz for some reason.

I think schwartz saw the beginning of the attack on stride by BS man/ the ripper. perhaps she breaks away and heads toward the voices and perceived help into the club yard and he catches up with her in the yard and cuts her throat. or perhaps even cuts her throat in the street, takes off, and again stride stumbles to perceived help toward voices but expires in the yard. Not satisfied, the ripper heads out to find another victim.

I didnt mention it in my previous post, but there was also an anon sighting of a peaked cap man in church street (in between place and time of dutfeild yard and mitre square) of a man in a peaked cap acting suspiciously-sitting on some steps, wiping his hands and trying to hide his face.

so we have marshall, schwartz, possibly smith, the anon sighting in between and lawende and co all seeing the BS/peaked cap man suspect. Peaked cap man also made an impression on Abberline (see my sig below). To me theres little mystery to this aspect of the case-bs/peaked cap man was the same man seen by all the aforementioned witnesses that night-he killed stride, then went on to kill eddowes and write the gsg. he was the ripper and he was wearing a peaked cap that night.

[Aethelwulf]

Hi Los
IMHO I dont think Brown saw the ripper and stride-i think he saw another couple. The man dosnt really fit the description of peaked cap man all the other witnesses saw that night including Lawende and company and dosnt fit time wise. there were other couples about that night-I think Brown saw one of them.

i dont really place much on Pipeman-Ive often wondered if he wasnt added by schwartz to help explain away his less then brave behavior. and if he was real-so what? we just have a man mentioned by a witness who seems to either be also running away or was confused and followed schwartz for some reason.

I think schwartz saw the beginning of the attack on stride by BS man/ the ripper. perhaps she breaks away and heads toward the voices and perceived help into the club yard and he catches up with her in the yard and cuts her throat. or perhaps even cuts her throat in the street, takes off, and again stride stumbles to perceived help toward voices but expires in the yard. Not satisfied, the ripper heads out to find another victim.

I didnt mention it in my previous post, but there was also an anon sighting of a peaked cap man in church street (in between place and time of dutfeild yard and mitre square) of a man in a peaked cap acting suspiciously-sitting on some steps, wiping his hands and trying to hide his face.

so we have marshall, schwartz, possibly smith, the anon sighting in between and lawende and co all seeing the BS/peaked cap man suspect. Peaked cap man also made an impression on Abberline (see my sig below). To me theres little mystery to this aspect of the case-bs/peaked cap man was the same man seen by all the aforementioned witnesses that night-he killed stride, then went on to kill eddowes and write the gsg. he was the ripper and he was wearing a peaked cap that night.

As you say, there is no real mystery here, but people like to come up with complex theories for some reason. The odds of Stride being assaulted by one man and then killed by a second a short while later in the same place must be extremely long.

BS man's behaviour sounds a lot like something Bury would do IMO. In fact there is evidence of Bury doing worse than this in front of witnesses, on the streets, and not being at all bothered (from the trial notes, Bury website):

• I have seen Prisoner assault his wife on two or three occasions. The first time on Wednesday after marriage, he punched her face in my house.
• The second occasion was outside a public house in Whitechapel in June. He gave her a blow on the mouth and she would have fallen had I not caught her.
• The third time was in end of December (28th) in Campbell Road. I was in a public house and—Prisoner’s wife came in looking for her husband. I then saw him on the Street making for the public house. He looked in at the door and saw his wife and asked “what are you doing here”—and he hit her two or three times on the face and she fell.

BS man didn't need to be concerned that he'd been seen, after all, what did Schwartz see - a man shove a woman, nothing else. No one saw anything incriminating after that - stride go into the yard or BS man leaving.

[Abby Normal]

As you say, there is no real mystery here, but people like to come up with complex theories for some reason. The odds of Stride being assaulted by one man and then killed by a second a short while later in the same place must be extremely long.

BS man's behaviour sounds a lot like something Bury would do IMO. In fact there is evidence of Bury doing worse than this in front of witnesses, on the streets, and not being at all bothered (from the trial notes, Bury website):

• I have seen Prisoner assault his wife on two or three occasions. The first time on Wednesday after marriage, he punched her face in my house.
• The second occasion was outside a public house in Whitechapel in June. He gave her a blow on the mouth and she would have fallen had I not caught her.
• The third time was in end of December (28th) in Campbell Road. I was in a public house and—Prisoner’s wife came in looking for her husband. I then saw him on the Street making for the public house. He looked in at the door and saw his wife and asked “what are you doing here”—and he hit her two or three times on the face and she fell.

BS man didn't need to be concerned that he'd been seen, after all, what did Schwartz see - a man shove a woman, nothing else. No one saw anything incriminating after that - stride go into the yard or BS man leaving.

hi wulf
agree. it totally sounds like bury. bury is one of tje strongest suspects

[c.d.]

BS man didn't need to be concerned that he'd been seen, after all, what did Schwartz see - a man shove a woman, nothing else. No one saw anything incriminating after that - stride go into the yard or BS man leaving.

Hello Aethelwulf,

I am afraid that you have lost me here. I agree with the above statement that IF the B.S. had walked away after simply pushing Stride that he really didn't need to be concerned that he had been seen. But then you also say in your post "the odds of Stride being assaulted by one man and then killed by a second a short while later in the same place must be extremely long." Are you implying that this never would have occurred to the police?

c.d.

[GBinOz]

Hi George,

As mentioned above to Abby I think pipe man is our man. He could well have been running over to Stride, instead of chasing after Schwatz. According to James Brown, he see someone looking similar to pipe man after 12.45. He is fairly certain on timings as he had a clock in his house, which he check just before leaving. Of course we cant rely on that totally but does make you wonder? I think the 'assault' on Stride by BS man gets blown out of proportion. Tom Westcott hints that BS man could have been Morris Eagle, which does in someways work. What do you think?

Hi Tristan,

I agree with you that BS man trying to pull Stride away from the yard rather than into the yard is a vital piece of evidence against him being the killer. I can't see any evidence for Eagle being BS Man, and I think that Brown was looking at the young couple mentioned by Mortimer. When it is reported by Schwartz that Pipeman was shouting a warning to BS Man, I think he was shouting a warning at BS Man. I think he saw Schwartz off, and then warned BS Man off, and assumed the role of white night to escort Stride to the safety of the club and then......well you know the rest. The question that is always avoided in these discussions is....where is Parcel Man?

Cheers, George

[Losmandris]

Pipe Man as her killer or the B.S. man, either way you have the same question, why does he go on to kill after being seen?

c.d.

Very good question? As a killer he was pretty brazen and likely seen before killing Chapman, Eddowes and Kelly, so why not Stride? Totally get your point though. Berner street did seem to be incredibly busy that night!