Stride Bruising

[lynn cates]

expenditures

Hello Addy. Possibly. And possibly the flower.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

why?

Hello C4.

"I think we have to answer the question as to why Liz was waiting outside the club . . . "

Agreed. Then, I think, it will all fall into place.

Cheers.
LC

[curious4]

Hello C4.

"I think we have to answer the question as to why Liz was waiting outside the club . . . "

Agreed. Then, I think, it will all fall into place.

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn,

You have the answer? I don't have the monopoly on this, any other suggestions gratefully received....

Regards,
C4

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Lynn. The cachous were wrapped in tissue paper, as you might remember. I have already done studies on this scenario. In fact, we all have. Just throw a loose bill and some change into a deep pocket and quickly dig in for the change. Your hand will meet the bill on the way down and it will become lodged between your thumb and forefinger as you grab for the change at the bottom. Keep in mind, the cachous was NOT in the palm of her hand...it was between her thumb and forefinger. The devil's in the details.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[lynn cates]

waiting

Hello C4. No, I am like everyone else--awaiting further investigation.

But I cannot help but feel she was waiting for someone.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

dislodging

Hello Tom. Yes, I've read the study; and no, the cachous were not in the palm.

If the coin/s and the cachous were ALL between thumb and forefinger, how could he dislodge one but not the other?

Cheers.
LC

[Michael W Richards]

Hi all,

The cashous were clenched in her hand, and her scarf was twisted "tightly". Seems to me the clenching is likely self explanatory. As for the bruising, being poked roughly in the upper chest while her back was to the wall may be an answer.

She pushes the man back, heads for the gate....and the scarf is grabbed from behind. He pulls her off balance backwards, she falls toward her left side, twisting the scarf, and he runs the blade across her throat as this happens, or as she lay there.

The cashous are ridiculously over analyzed,... why did any woman or man use these items in Victorian London? Well, almost no-one brushed their teeth and fresh breath was important when talking closely with someone, while facing them. Facing someone while talking does not sound like conventional LVP Prostitution to me personally. And I can think of no other prostitute in these stories that either had on them or stated they used flowers and breath mints to attract filthy warehouse and dock workers.

But then again I can also discard the grapes evidence as well since I have no suspect that story relies on.

Best regards all,

Mike R

[Hunter]

The cashous are ridiculously over analyzed,...

That point, we agree on, Mike. There was another murder a few years later where a woman's throat was cut. Witnesses even heard a struggle in this case. She was found holding items in her hand.

[mariab]

I have already done studies on this scenario. In fact, we all have. Just throw a loose bill and some change into a deep pocket and quickly dig in for the change. Your hand will meet the bill on the way down and it will become lodged between your thumb and forefinger as you grab for the change at the bottom.

I've conducted "studies" in similar fashion when I'm going surfing (lol), as there's invariably a piece of wax and some coins attached to my bills when going to the beach. (Which invariably makes me exclaim "I'm sooo rich! There's money in my wax.")

But according to the casebook victims' archive, in the pocket of Stride's underskirt were found:
A key (as of a padlock)
A small piece of lead pencil
Six large and one small button
A comb
A broken piece of comb
A metal spoon
A hook (as from a dress)
A piece of muslin
One or two small pieces of paper
Are you suggesting that the assailant only asked her to empty some of her pockets? Victorian men would have been wise about Victorian womens' (under)garments and the possibility of underskirts pockets etc..

On the other side, I completely agree with Chapman's ring intendations signaling a robbery pre-mortem. With Eddowes possibly too, since his hands would have been bloody for a search in her pockets postmortem, and some items in her pockets were apparently found blood-free. But this doesn't necessarily mean that the Ripper used the exact same MO on every single victim. He would have been able to adapt to situations. It might very well be that Stride was nibbling on cachous when her assailant approached her.

PS.: Cris, do you have details/a press report on that case where there was a struggle and the body was still holding items in her hands postmortem?

[Hunter]

PS.: Cris, do you have details/a press report on that case where there was a struggle and the body was still holding items in her hands postmortem?

Yes, Maria, I do. And Debs has quite a bit on it too.

[lynn cates]

reasons and reasons

Hello Maria.

"But this doesn't necessarily mean that the Ripper used the exact same MO on every single victim."

Quite true. But I can think of another reason.

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

Yes, Maria, I do. And Debs has quite a bit on it too.

Perhaps you or Debs would be interested in posting said newspaper report, for comparison to Stride's cachous?

"But this doesn't necessarily mean that the Ripper used the exact same MO on every single victim."
Quite true. But I can think of another reason.

Such as, Lynn?

[Tom_Wescott]

If the coin/s and the cachous were ALL between thumb and forefinger, how could he dislodge one but not the other?

They of course wouldn't have been. the tissue paper would lodge, like paper money, between the thumb and forefinger; the smaller, heavier coins would be in the palm.

Maria,

If robbed, Stride would reach in her money pocket, not attempt to hand him a spoon and thread and such. Compare this with Annie Chapman, who had no money, and told her killer this. She was then told to empty her pockets, which she did. The items were knocked to the ground by her feet, being worthless. The killer then took the rings from her fingers...this was done while she was living, you know.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[mariab]

Compare this with Annie Chapman, who had no money, and told her killer this. She was then told to empty her pockets, which she did. The items were knocked to the ground by her feet, being worthless. The killer then took the rings from her fingers...this was done while she was living, you know.

With this part I completely agree, esp. with Chapman still being alive causing the intendations on her fingers from her rings being removed hastily/brutally.

If robbed, Stride would reach in her money pocket, not attempt to hand him a spoon and thread and such.

Yes, but my point Tom was that it looks like if she didn't touch her undergarment pocket, which looks like an unlikely mugging. And if she was careful, she might have kept her money in her most well hidden pocket. Plus she had intact buttons in her pocket. I've experienced numerous times that a friend is seeking for change in their pockets to pay for coffee and they come out with buttons, gum, little objects like that in addition to change.
Also, unlike with 2 other C5, there were not any items knocked to the ground by Stride's feet. To me cachous qualify as almost food, which is self explanatory that Stride might have held them out previous to the encounter with her assailant.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Maria. If my interpretation is correct, then clearly the money and cachous were in a pocket all their own. Stride had many in which to use.

I've experienced numerous times that a friend is seeking for change in their pockets to pay for coffee and they come out with buttons, gum, little objects like that in addition to change.

That's literally the entire point I've been making and that you've been disagreeing with.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott