Stride Bruising

[lynn cates]

Dr. Blackwell's version

Hello Tom. Quite agree. As much as I respect Dr. Phillips, I tend to be much closer to Dr. Blackwell's version.

Cheers.
LC

[Tom_Wescott]

Dr. Phillips' profile of how it went down is simply not workable in any way. Dr. Blackwell was probably a little closer to the truth in his explanations. It's important to remember these men were medical doctors and not crime scene profilers.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[lynn cates]

swift

Hello Maria.

"The whole thing must have happened real swift and quick, as the cachous in her hand testify."

Quite.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

possibility

Hello Tom.

"Neither doctor could explain how Stride had been silently subdued and laid to the ground. . . "

Indeed, but Blackwell suggested the possibility of about a two second take down from behind.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

forensic quandary

Hello Cris.

"The only way I can see something like this working would be that he pulled her down by the shoulders, placed his left hand over her face while he drew the knife (hence the abrasion under her right brow), and once he got the knife out he grabbed the knot of her scarf to steady her (she was probably trying turn over on her left side to right herself) and cut her throat in that way. Her legs drew up in reflex as she was dying."

1. If he threw her down as described, she should be just outside where the gates would close. Besides Kozebrodske, no one placed her body there. It seems, rather, that she died just west of the open gates, her feet just inside (although I recognise that there were three versions of her east/west body placement). Given the length of the open gates, her initial position at take down versus her final position at throat cutting are off by about 5-6 feet.

2. If she were lying on her left side and he pulled her up by the scarf, would not the knot be tight and to the right--not left?

3. Were the cachous in her left hand all this time?

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

The only way I can see something like this working would be that he pulled her down by the shoulders, placed his left hand over her face while he drew the knife (hence the abrasion under her right brow), and once he got the knife out he grabbed the knot of her scarf to steady her (she was probably trying turn over on her left side to right herself) and cut her throat in that way. Her legs drew up in reflex as she was dying.

I agree about the left hand over her face, or rather, in a chokehold around her nose and mouth, which might have incapacitated her (vs. fainting, as proposed by some). She might have drawn her knees in reflex already when being lowered to the ground. I assume the assailant was primarily interested in her not making any noise and in staying away from the blood. The whole thing must have happened real swift and quick, as the cachous in her hand testify.

Dr. Phillips returned to the mortuary on at least two more occasions after the initial post-mortem at 3 p.m. Monday. In the same testimony reported in the Times he later said, "On Tuesday I again went to the mortuary to observe the marks on the shoulders." He mentions on recall on Friday that he and Drs. Brown and Blackwell had returned to the mortuary for a third time "after the last examination" possibly on Wednesday before that session of the inquest commenced.

Could you clarify on the dates for Monday/Tuesday, Cris?
Pertaining to peri-mortem bruises: No clue how long it might have taken them to form, but I know from extensive experience with frequent crashing in sports that bruises take from 24-48 hours to form. I wonder if in postmortem condition this process accelerates due to the blood "settling" due to gravity/lack of blood circulation. But somehow I can't imagine Stride to have formed bruises less than 12-6 hours after being pushed/pulled by BS and her killer.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi all,

There were no abrasions to her face, just mud mistaken for abrasions. Regarding Phillips, he was not aware that Dr. Blackwell had spilled the cachous from Stride's hand at the time he concocted his explanation. He thought there had been some sort of struggle. Neither doctor could explain how Stride had been silently subdued and laid to the ground, and Phillips quite rightfully pointed out that just because no one came forth who heard her cry out, does not mean that she didn't.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Hunter]

Hi Bunny,

I believe, during his recall, Phillips spoke of an abrasion on Elizabeth Stride's neck that turned out not to be so after he wiped it off with a damp towel. However, he did speak of an abrasion under her right brow during his first appearance.

As we know, his hypothesis was that the killer grabbed her by the shoulders from behind and pulled her down, cutting her throat afterwards. You raise an interesting question as to how he could do that with both hands, then keep her down while he drew the knife. Neither Phillips' or Blackwell's scenarios seemed to set well with the coroner and as far as the inquest was concerned, it went unresolved.

The only way I can see something like this working would be that he pulled her down by the shoulders, placed his left hand over her face while he drew the knife (hence the abrasion under her right brow), and once he got the knife out he grabbed the knot of her scarf to steady her (she was probably trying turn over on her left side to right herself) and cut her throat in that way. Her legs drew up in reflex as she was dying.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Dave and all. Schwartz has Stride getting grabbed on the shoulders (per the Star), so I don't see how corroborating medical evidence could render him a liar? Are you aware of how thick her skirts were? The bruise under the collar bone of her right shoulder suggests, as I stated before, that someone grabbed her shoulders from behind, his thumb going under her collar bone and his fingers over the front of her shoulder. If this someone was BS Man, then as she fell his grip may have slowed her fall, thus no scrapes or bruise.

Incidentally, the fact that the bruising was not immediately apparent, but slowly rose under the skin following death, suggests it's peri mortem bruising, which means it occurred within a few minutes either before or after death. Technically, it's not impossible that it was caused by the men who picked her body up and carried her inside the club, though I would think this extremely unlikely given the time we're told this occurred, which would have been more than an hour after she died.

Now what do you make of that chest bruise?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Archaic]

The Marks On Her Shoulders

Quickly on the discolorations on the shoulders...
The medicos did not implicate that the bruises were caused from any blunt force trauma. Dr. Blackwell's Oct. 5th testimony as also reported in the Times:

Juror - Do you know how these marks were likely to have been caused?
Blackwell - By two hands pressing on the shoulders.

Do you think the killer grabbed her by both shoulders, then released one hand to quickly slit her throat? (Seems like it would be difficult to grab her with both hands while holding a very sharp knife. And the facial bruises indicate he grabbed her face as he slit her throat.)

Or might the bruising have occurred after he slit her throat, as have grabbed her shoulders to lay her down more quietly?

Seems like quite a while ago we discussed whether grabbing a dying person would result in a visible bruise, and if so, how long after death it would appear, but I'm afraid I can't recall what the general consensus was.

Thanks and best regards,
Archaic

[mariab]

Thanks for explaning the “on two occasions since“ Cris, as I was scratching my head if he meant on other victims.

Either Schwartz is lying in particular detail, or Schwartz is lying in general? Which is it to be?

What's interesting is that the Star report fits with Stride having been bruised on the shoulders.

[Hunter]

As regards bruising on Stride's right shoulder, as reported in The Times, Dr Bagster Phillips says:

"Over both shoulders, especially the right, and under the collar bone and in front of the chest there was a blueish discolouration, which I have watched and have seen on two occasions since".

It doesn't necessarily sound as if the markings to the right were necessarily THAT more pronounced than those to the left...but what certainly is curious to my mind, is the wording of the section I've bolded...odd...

Hi Dave,

Dr. Phillips returned to the mortuary on at least two more occasions after the initial post-mortem at 3 p.m. Monday. In the same testimony reported in the Times he later said, "On Tuesday I again went to the mortuary to observe the marks on the shoulders." He mentions on recall on Friday that he and Drs. Brown and Blackwell had returned to the mortuary for a third time "after the last examination" possibly on Wednesday before that session of the inquest commenced. What he was looking for was a change in the coloration as the blood settled in the body and decomposition set in.

And of course, taking Schwartz's statement, as quite clearly interpreted by Tom, at face value, I repeat my earlier question...why weren't Strides knees, calves or thighs bruised? Either Schwartz is lying in particular detail, or Schwartz is lying in general? Which is it to be?

She had on two petticoats, chemise, and a skirt, which might have cushioned her fall to some extent - being more loosely around her that her upper garments.

Quickly on the discolorations on the shoulders...
The medicos did not implicate that the bruises were caused from any blunt force trauma. Dr. Blackwell's Oct. 5th testimony as also reported in the Times:

Juror - Do you know how these marks were likely to have been caused?
Blackwell - By two hands pressing on the shoulders.

[Cogidubnus]

As regards bruising on Stride's right shoulder, as reported in The Times, Dr Bagster Phillips says:

"Over both shoulders, especially the right, and under the collar bone and in front of the chest there was a blueish discolouration, which I have watched and have seen on two occasions since".

It doesn't necessarily sound as if the markings to the right were necessarily THAT more pronounced than those to the left...but what certainly is curious to my mind, is the wording of the section I've bolded...odd...

And of course, taking Schwartz's statement, as quite clearly interpreted by Tom, at face value, I repeat my earlier question...why weren't Strides knees, calves or thighs bruised? Either Schwartz is lying in particular detail, or Schwartz is lying in general? Which is it to be?

All the best

Dave

[lynn cates]

opposite

Hello Tom. I was thinking that, standing face to face, right meets left and vice versa.

Cheers.
LC

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Lynn. Yes, anything is possible. But I was following Swanson's scenario of BS Man having turned Stride around and pushed or thrown her down.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott