Stride Bruising

[curious4]

Schwarz

Evening all,

There was time for Liz to have met someone after Schwarz saw her.

Best wishes,
C4

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Dave,

These aren't new points, and in something I wrote years ago exploring the idea that Schwartz lied, I too talk about the lack of scrapes where one might expect to find scrapes. But the truth is, we don't have Schwartz's statement at all, just a condensed version by Swanson, so we don't really know what Schwartz saw happen, only that BS man turned her around and she ended up on the ground.

Hi Addy,

So the scenario you prefer is one where BS man knocks Stride down, then helps her up, then drags her by the arm (while still on her feet) into the passageway, where he puts her face first against the wall and cuts her throat, all without her making the slightest sound? Not impossible, and I agree that we should not expect a street prostitute to cry out the way a modern woman would if handled in this way, but do you really see this as the most likely scenario?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[lynn cates]

sequence

Hello Addy. Thanks.

"The cachous will probably remain a mystery. I can think of some reasons she had them in her hand, but they are just my thoughts!"

Like all the rest of us.

"her killer gave them to her to distract her attention"

Very well. Was that BS man? If so, was it before or after the attack?

"or he asked her for them. Something like that."

I see. But how did he know that she had them?

"2 Seems self-evident, she was lying on her left side and that was where the mud was"

Quite. Of course, that precludes rolling or dragging.

"3 The others probably didn't struglle either, there were no defensive wounds (except for Mary Kelly, there was one on her hand I believe)."

A struggle may happen without defensive wounds.

"The killer was also disturbed, so he had no time to do more to the body"

Disturbed? By whom? And have we any evidence for that?

"(and if you don't think Stride a Ripper victim, why would another killer tear her dress or anything like that?)"

1. Actually, I don't think ANYONE a ripper victim. 2. Liz's dress was not torn.

"4 When her throat was cut and her knees buckled, her killer could put her in any position he wanted."

Is she standing? If so, where is the blood spurt?

"And she didn't have to look as if she was going into the yard, she was already in the yard'

Here, we agree.

"5 Her left carotid artery was only punctured, not cut through. She slowly bled to death. Her windpipe was severed, so she couldn't cry out. If there was only a small puncture, I don't think you would get arterial spray"

I can live with that. But Polly and Annie both had the carotid completely severed. Perhaps he was having a bad day, or so I have been given to understand?

"6 The scarf was used to pull her head back to expose the throat."

Such a lever may or may not be effective in that regard. But it would certainly abduct the head.

"The knife then cut the lower edge while the knot was being pulled tight. This would have happened before the above, so this one should probably be number two."

I can live with this, sequence notwithstanding.

Any thoughts on how/where they met?

Cheers.
LC

[Addy]

Hi Lynn,

The cachous will probably remain a mystery. I can think of some reasons she had them in her hand, but they are just my thoughts! : her killer gave them to her to distract her attention or he asked her for them. Something like that.

To the other things:
2 Seems self-evident, she was lying on her left side and that was where the mud was
3 The others probably didn't struglle either, there were no defensive wounds (except for Mary Kelly, there was one on her hand I believe). They were killed too quick for that. The killer was also disturbed, so he had no time to do more to the body (and if you don't think Stride a Ripper victim, why would another killer tear her dress or anything like that?)
4 When her throat was cut and her knees buckled, her killer could put her in any position he wanted. And she didn't have to look as if she was going into the yard, she was already in the yard
5 Her left carotid artery was only punctured, not cut through. She slowly bled to death. Her windpipe was severed, so she couldn't cry out. If there was only a small puncture, I don't think you would get arterial spray
6 The scarf was used to pull her head back to expose the throat. The knife then cut the lower edge while the knot was being pulled tight. This would have happened before the above, so this one should probably be number two.

This is how I harmonise these things, someone probably has other explanations.

Greetings,

Addy

[lynn cates]

reconstruction points

Hello Addy. I personally find it helpful to try to visualise the exact sequence of events in any of the killings. It would be interesting to try to harmonise the following bits of information in Liz's case.

1. Liz is found with cachous in left hand, held between thumb and forefinger, none spilled.

(Here, one must account not only for the manner in which she retained them, but also one must provide oneself a good explanation concerning why she had them in her hand at the moment of death and not in her pocket.)

2. Mud/moisture on one side (left) only.

(She was found lying on her left side as well.)

3. She "looked as if lain gently down."

(No signs of a struggle, no torn dress, etc.)

4. Her head is pointing in a general western direction; her feet eastward.

(Looks like she is NOT going into the yard at the time.)

5. No signs of arterial spray.

6. Scarf is cut slightly and its knot is tight and to the left.

Cheers.
LC

[Addy]

Hi all,

You can also drag someone along the arm while they are on their feet. She wouldn't become dirty then. Perhaps he pulled her by the arm inside the gates trying to get out of the public view and then started to talk to her to keep her quiet? And I don't think she would have started screaming when he pulled her arm, prostitutes were probably used to that sort of treatment.

The mud only came onto her left side as she was laid on the ground after her throat was cut.

Greatings,

Addy

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Dave and all. Schwartz has Stride getting grabbed on the shoulders (per the Star), so I don't see how corroborating medical evidence could render him a liar? Are you aware of how thick her skirts were? The bruise under the collar bone of her right shoulder suggests, as I stated before, that someone grabbed her shoulders from behind, his thumb going under her collar bone and his fingers over the front of her shoulder. If this someone was BS Man, then as she fell his grip may have slowed her fall, thus no scrapes or bruise.

Hi Tom

Fair enough perhaps...but last weekend whilst accepting delivery of some shopping, I simply stumbled on our front steps (no push, no huge impact to speak of) and ended up with torn jeans, a visibly abraded knee, four bleeding knuckles on my right wrist (where I attempted to save myself) and a visibly bruised left arm...this from a simple stumble...ok her skirts may've been thick, and we do all differ, but I simply stumbled...she was allegedly thrown...

If she was sensitive enough to bruise that badly on her shoulders, she was sensitive enough to bruise from being thrown to the ground...I am at the very least suspicious of the Schwartz testimony...

All the best

Dave

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Archaic. I'll have to think over your scenario a bit, because I don't see the need to touching the shoulders there. As for what I suggested....do you have small hands? I don't, nor I'd bet did BS Man. Stride wasn't a large woman, so what I described is perfectly possible, especially with a man who wants her to feel some pain. Also, I'm trying to work with the written record, and there's only one witnessed and recorded contact between a man and Stride's shoulders, and that's with what Schwartz say. I perfectly conceed that the injuries to Stride's shoulders might have absolutely nothing to do with anything Schwartz saw. But medically speaking, it's a near certainty that these bruises occurred within minutes before or after her death.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Archaic]

Collar-Bone Bruising?

The bruise under the collar bone of her right shoulder suggests, as I stated before, that someone grabbed her shoulders from behind, his thumb going under her collar bone and his fingers over the front of her shoulder.

Hi Tom. I'm having trouble visualizing this.

If you grab someone by the shoulders from behind, don't your fingers go over the top of the shoulders, causing your thumbs to naturally go into the upper back/top-line of the shoulder?

I can't picture how grabbing someone from behind results in a thumb going into the collar bone area.

If grabbing from behind resulted in collar-bone bruising, wouldn't someone have had to reach pretty much over her shoulders in order to dig his fingers in under the collar-bone?

It makes more sense to me that Liz was grabbed from behind by the face with one hand and her throat instantly cut with the other hand, then as her body slumped the killer grabbed the top of her shoulders from behind to keep the blood away from him as he laid her down on the ground. That way his fingers would dig in hard under her collar-bone, causing the peri-mortem bruising there.

Thanks,
Archaic

[lynn cates]

yes

Hello Maria. Certainly.

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

Hello Lynn. I thought you meant "be quiet". Lol. :-p
(Just kidding.) I'm glad we agree about the mud and the cachous and I've thought of someone who reads Russian for your Okhrana Palo Alto research. Can I email you in a couple days?

[lynn cates]

evidences

Hello Tom. Quite. (I wasn't going to say anything, but . . .)

Cheers.
LC

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Addy and Abby,

Then how do you explain why her clothes were only wet and muddied on the left side? It had just stopped raining 90 or so minutes before and the ground would be wet and quite dirty, particularly inside the gates. If she were dragged even a very short distance, her clothes on that side would be filthy, and a person can only be dragged on their front or back side. And was she conscious as she was being dragged? Why did she hold on to the cachous? Why not fight, struggle, and cry out at that point?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Abby Normal]

Hi Dave and all,

It seems most likely that BS man was the killer. I think he first struggled with Stride (as seen by Schwarz) and when Schwarz left he dragged her into the gates and killed her, in which action he pulled her head backwards by pulling the scarf.

Greetings,

Addy

Hi Addy
Totally agree.

[Addy]

So Addy, Broad shouldered man isn't the killer?

Dave

Hi Dave and all,

It seems most likely that BS man was the killer. I think he first struggled with Stride (as seen by Schwarz) and when Schwarz left he dragged her into the gates and killed her, in which action he pulled her head backwards by pulling the scarf.

Greetings,

Addy