Stride Bruising

[lynn cates]

walk through

Hello Addy. Thanks. Try here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a95rqNxxbiM

Thoughts?

Cheers.
LC

[curious4]

Liz

Hello all,

Red rose backed with a maidenhair fern. Late in the season for roses, so probably a hot-house flower. Sounds like a man's buttonhole (as worn at weddings these days, but men wore them more often at the time). I see her companion, whoever he was, as taking it from his jacket/coat
and pinning it to Liz's jacket and making her a present of the cachous. I don't see her soliciting, even if she had lost/spent her sixpence, she still had the piece of velvet which she had left with a friend and which she could easily have sold.

About the bruising, I think we decided last time that the good doctor meant that he had been keeping an eye on it, but he was by all accounts an old-fashioned man and could well have been using the word in its older meaning of "previously".

Best wishes,
C4

[Addy]

Hi Lynn,

No I haven't seen your re-enactment. Where can I find it?

Greetings,

Addy

[Tom_Wescott]

I still say the cachous isn't that big of a mystery. She had no money on her when found, though she should have had some. Her clothes had not been interfered with after death. This suggests she was robbed before she was murdered and the cachous was in her hand because it was in the same pocket with the loose change that she took out for the murder. Same M.O. we see in Hanbury Street and Mitre Square where each of the victims also had personal items nearby.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Wickerman]

Incidentally, the fact that the bruising was not immediately apparent, but slowly rose under the skin following death, suggests it's peri mortem bruising, which means it occurred within a few minutes either before or after death....

Now what do you make of that chest bruise?

Whatever is made of the bruising, Chapman appears to have had the same or similar bruising. So it might be well to consider them both being assaulted in a similar fashion. If any envisaged scenario works for one, but not the other, then its probably wrong.

Regards, Jon S.

[lynn cates]

re-enactment

Hello Addy. Thanks. Hope you can find that. Sounds interesting.

Have you looked at my re-enactment of the killing? How far does it coincide with your view?

Cheers.
LC

[Addy]

Hi Lynn,

I've read about the different knives somewhere, I'll try to find the book. I mean the mystery is why she took the cachous in her hand at that moment, naturally she would clench her fist when her throat was cut.

She could very well have been on her way to the ground when her throat was cut, so no, not bold upright.

You're right, Schwartz walked behind BS man before they met, so BS man and Stride met just outside the gates.

Greetings,

Addy

[lynn cates]

and then . . .

Hello Addy. Thanks.

"I don't want to make mysteries where there are none, however the fact is that she held those cachous for some reason or other. And that reason will probably remain a mystery!"

Well, if I have anything in my hand, and there is a tightening around my throat, I will clench spasmodically.

"Indeed, Kate's clothers were torn but that doesn't surprise me, seeing how she was mutilated. Her killer tore her clothes to get to her body. This wasn't the case with Liz."

Nor Annie, whose mutilations, in some ways, resembled Kate's.

"Solid evidence for what?"

Different knives. (I would cheer you if you did.)

"I think that her throat was cut when she was standing up. The puncture in the artery was probably not enough to cause arterial spurt. The puncture is a fact."

Well, surely not bolt upright? Blackwell suggested she may have been on the way to the ground. (See my re-enactment.)

"The doctor who examined Liz stated she was killed with a different knife than the other victims, so I take this as a fact."

Are you certain? I'd LOVE to see this.

"As all this happened so long ago and a lot of documents are missing I think this is as close to solid evidence as you get."

Probably correct.

"Do you think, if it was BS man, that they met at the gates?"

Or just outside, according to the story.

"They could have met anywhere and walked up to the gates before Schwartz came along."

But did not IS observe BS before he arrived at #40?

"He wasn't standing there, he came walking down the street, so they could have arrived there shortly before he passed by, comng up from wherever they met."

But see the story.

"If you don't think it was BS man, who do you think killed Liz Stride? (Out of curiosity)"

I still favour someone who had it in for the club.

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

Does anybody know if the doctor ever explained his remark about seeing shoulder bruising in two other murder cases and "watching for" them? Was he referring to suspected Ripper murders, and if so does anybody know which ones?

Bunny, that's what I thought too initially, but these other "two occasions“ refer to Stride's body. Like Cris/Hunter explained below, Dr. Phillips returned to the mortuary on at least two more occasions after the initial postmortem at 15.00 p.m. Monday, Oct 1. As reported in The Times, "On Tuesday I again went to the mortuary to observe the marks on the shoulders." He mentions that he, Dr. Brown and Dr. Blackwell returned to the mortuary for a third time before that session of the inquest commenced. They checked for a change in the discoloration, as the blood settled in the body and decomposition set in.

[Archaic]

re: Bruising and Dr's Remark

As for the bruises on her shoulder, I'm not so sure they had anything to do with her murder, though they may have been from BS Man push.

Thanks for clarifying that, Tom; I had thought you were saying that the bruises were inflicted at the time of her murder.

> Does anybody know if the doctor ever explained his remark about seeing shoulder bruising in two other murder cases and "watching for" them?

> Was he referring to suspected Ripper murders, and if so does anybody know which ones?

Thanks very much,
Archaic

[Addy]

Hi Lynn,

I don't want to make mysteries where there are none, however the fact is that she held those cachous for some reason or other. And that reason will probably remain a mystery!

Indeed, Kate's clothers were torn but that doesn't surprise me, seeing how she was mutilated. Her killer tore her clothes to get to her body. This wasn't the case with Liz.

Solid evidence for what? I think that her throat was cut when she was standing up. The puncture in the artery was probably not enough to cause arterial spurt. The puncture is a fact. The doctor who examined Liz stated she was killed with a different knife than the other victims, so I take this as a fact. As all this happened so long ago and a lot of documents are missing I think this is as close to solid evidence as you get.

Do you think, if it was BS man, that they met at the gates? They could have met anywhere and walked up to the gates before Schwartz came along. He wasn't standing there, he came walking down the street, so they could have arrived there shortly before he passed by, comng up from wherever they met.

If you don't think it was BS man, who do you think killed Liz Stride? (Out of curiosity)

Greetings,

Addy

[lynn cates]

some points

Hello Addy. Thanks.

"I think BS man was her killer . . . "

Well, if BS man actually existed, then I believe he did it.

" . . . so I suppose he gave the cachous to her after Schwarz had left . . . "

After having attacked her? Perhaps a gesture of good will?

"As for your other question: that's why I think the cachous will always remain a mystery!"

Perhaps we make our own mystery where none exists?

"I think her killer was disturbed by Diemschutz."

Alright. It's a belief, but we all have them.

"And in your points you said: her dress wasn't torn or anything. Hence my reply: if she was killed by someone else, why would he tear her dress?"

Well, Kate's was cut and torn.

"As for the puncture: that probably occured when she was standing and it might still not give an arterial spurt. He could have been in a hurry, knowing he was seen or indeed had a bad day. It could also have something to do with the fact she was killed by a different type of knife."

Do you have solid evidence for this?

"I have no particular thoughts on how or where they met. It could be pre-arranged or she just picked him up in the streets just like the other victims did."

Well, if it's BS man, surely we know how she met him--given the Schwartz story?

Cheers.
LC

[Addy]

Hi Tom,

It doesn't sound very logical like that, I agree. I think it all took a bit longer, so they had their "fight" as witnessed by Schwarz, then he dragged her into the gateways. He could have told her he did not want to be seen or that they might be arrested if they continued like that or something similar. When she calmed down he would have proposed "business" and she would have turned herself towards the wall. Then he cut her throat.

After all, between the incident seen by Schwarz and Diemschutz finding the body, 15 minutes had passed. That is enough time for them to talk before the killing occured and that would (in my opinion) also be the time when he handed her the cachous or ask her if she had anything for him (for his throat or any other excuse) to divert her attention when he produced the knife. I don't think he had the knife in his hands all the time, I assume she would have protested if she had seen a knife.

Greetings,

Addy

[Addy]

Hi Lynn,

I think BS man was her killer, so I suppose he gave the cachous to her after Schwarz had left, otherwise she would indeed have put them in her pocket. As for your other question: that's why I think the cachous will always remain a mystery!

I think her killer was disturbed by Diemschutz. And in your points you said: her dress wasn't torn or anything. Hence my reply: if she was killed by someone else, why would he tear her dress?

As for the puncture: that probably occured when she was standing and it might still not give an arterial spurt. He could have been in a hurry, knowing he was seen or indeed had a bad day. It could also have something to do with the fact she was killed by a different type of knife.

I have no particular thoughts on how or where they met. It could be pre-arranged or she just picked him up in the streets just like the other victims did

Greetings,

Addy

PS: I know you don't believe in a Ripper, but even then: all victims met their killer in the streets.

[Tom_Wescott]

Yes, there certainly was.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott