Stride Bruising

[lynn cates]

same

Hello Jon. Thanks.

"But the finger marks on the throat, as pointed out by C4, are much more significant."

Absolutely. Little doubt but that Polly and Annie shared a similar fate--right down to the twin cuts.

Cheers.
LC

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Although

A woman being assaulted not being important enough to concern oneself with until she is found to be dead is quite troubling. Bravery I think not quite so much.

[curious4]

Begg

Hello again DLDWatson,

Don't know if I can rely on any of my books now, but found this in Paul Begg's book "The Definitive Story", which suggests that Schwarz WAS at the inquest, but gave his evidence in camera. He cites a draft letter from Sir Robert Anderson to the Home Office, written after the inquest:

"With ref. to yr letter &c. I have to state that the opinion arrived at in this Dept. upon the evidence of Schwarz at the inquest in Eliz. Stride's case is that...."

Begg suggests that Schwarz's story was believed at the time and that the only reasonable explanation for his testimony not being reported in the newspapers is that Schwarz testified in private and was, he presumes, considered a very important witness.

He says that the letter was "in the files" but apart from that nothing else.

Can't back this up from anywhere else, but Paul Begg is, I believe, considered an authority. Shame he didn't continue with the letter, but perhaps, as it was a draft, there wasn't any more.

Best wishes,
C4

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

hey thanks for that

Hello again DLDWatson,

Don't know if I can rely on any of my books now, but found this in Paul Begg's book "The Definitive Story", which suggests that Schwarz WAS at the inquest, but gave his evidence in camera. He cites a draft letter from Sir Robert Anderson to the Home Office, written after the inquest:

"With ref. to yr letter &c. I have to state that the opinion arrived at in this Dept. upon the evidence of Schwarz at the inquest in Eliz. Stride's case is that...."

Begg suggests that Schwarz's story was believed at the time and that the only reasonable explanation for his testimony not being reported in the newspapers is that Schwarz testified in private and was, he presumes, considered a very important witness.

He says that the letter was "in the files" but apart from that nothing else.

Can't back this up from anywhere else, but Paul Begg is, I believe, considered an authority. Shame he didn't continue with the letter, but perhaps, as it was a draft, there wasn't any more.

Best wishes,
C4

A witness testifying or not at an inquest doesn't invalidate them. As I've read over and over again the point of an inquest is to determine cause of death. Schwartz not speaking English is one good reason to keep him from getting up there. The only thing I can think of that could support his statement is the bruising. It is very late/early here so brain is way below optimal. Anything else come to mind anyone?

[Jon Guy]

Hi Lynn

Absolutely. Little doubt but that Polly and Annie shared a similar fate.

I don`t think anyone has any doubts about that .

-right down to the twin cuts.

Like Eddowes and McKenzie.

[Paddy]

From National Archives site Re Schwartz at Inquest

Reference:
MEPO 3/140

Description:
Elizabeth Stride (29 Sept 1888): Draft letter to Home Office regarding the evidence of Israel Schwartz given at the inques

Folio No: 207
Date: 1888 Nov 5
Held by:
The National Archives, Kew
Public Record

[DVV]

Hello
If he saw the murder occur he may not have realised it.
Have you seen the murder of Meredith Hunter by Hells Angels at the Rolling Stones gig at Altamont. At first look it appears like some kind of scuffle but in reality he was been stabbed.
Was there a delay in reporting what he`d seen? He went to the Police station to make a statement on the Sunday afternoon.

Hi Jon,

Indeed, he witnessed no murder and did not delay.
Plus, he didn't know Liz.
Nothing to do with Hutch.

Cheers mon ami

[curious4]

Confidence

Hello Paddy,

Thank you - this goes some way towards restoring my faith in my JTR library. Not that I blindly accept everything I read, but I would expect basic facts to be more or less trustworthy.

Hello DLDWatson,

I thought the main objection to Schwarz was that he was said not to have given evidence at the inquest and that this was because the police doubted his statement. Wrong!

Best wishes,
C4

[curious4]

Hello Lynn,

Have now seen your re-enactment (sadly without sound), and yes, with you as to the grabbing of the scarf, but Liz was wearing a square "folded cornerwise". Don`t know about Liz, but I would tie this loosely at the front. Her assailant would then only have to grab both ends, from the side, from behind, or in front (my personal choice) and pull to tighten it enough to choke her.

Not with you that she met her murderer at the club, though. Outside the gates, perhaps.

May I also express my admiration for the moustache?

Best wishes,
Gwyneth

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Thanks.

My library is small and I was unaware of that. But the police believing him doesn't verify the validity of his statement. Belief does not constitute evidence. So what evidence is there that does support his statement?

[curious4]

Evidence

Hello DLDWatson,

A little off-thread this, but anyway. Wasn't there at the time but presumably the police would have checked with his landlord, neighbours etc. Don't know what would have impressed Anderson, but it seems he did. If he was the recipient of the "Don't contact the police, I know where you live" letter, and provided it was genuine, he may well have been able to identify the killer. (Pure speculation this)

Best wishes,
C4

[Paddy]

Schwartz's evidence

One has to wonder why Schwartz's evidence was held In Camera. I am assuming here thats what happened.

For parts of the Inquest to be witheld from the public, there would have to be pretty strong reasons.
ie National security, Threat to a person or an Ongoing Police Enquiry (that this evidence was part of)

Pat............

[lynn cates]

double or nothing

Hello Jon. Thanks.

Think you'd better nix Kate from the roll. She doesn't belong there.

Cheers.
LC

[DRoy]

Paddy & C4,

It is Anderson's draft letter but there is nothing to substantiate the comment about Schwartz. He was obviously given incorrect information.

You can tell by Baxter's summary to the jury from the inquest that it's quite clear Schwartz didn't testify. There is not one comment in his summary about anything close to what Schwartz is said to have seen.

His testimony was not held in camera because he didn't testify.

Cheers
DRoy

[lynn cates]

goo goo ga joob

Hello Gwyneth. Thanks.

"Not with you that she met her murderer at the club, though. Outside the gates, perhaps."

OK. But she was killed inside them.

"May I also express my admiration for the moustache?"

Thanks you. Almost a walrus?

Cheers.
LC