Stride Bruising

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  • lynn cates
    Commisioner
    • Aug 2009
    • 13841

    #271
    same

    Hello Jon. Thanks.

    "But the finger marks on the throat, as pointed out by C4, are much more significant."

    Absolutely. Little doubt but that Polly and Annie shared a similar fate--right down to the twin cuts.

    Cheers.
    LC

    Comment

    • Digalittledeeperwatson
      Sergeant
      • Oct 2012
      • 635

      #272
      Although

      A woman being assaulted not being important enough to concern oneself with until she is found to be dead is quite troubling. Bravery I think not quite so much.
      Valour pleases Crom.

      Comment

      • curious4
        Chief Inspector
        • Mar 2010
        • 1749

        #273
        Begg

        Hello again DLDWatson,

        Don't know if I can rely on any of my books now, but found this in Paul Begg's book "The Definitive Story", which suggests that Schwarz WAS at the inquest, but gave his evidence in camera. He cites a draft letter from Sir Robert Anderson to the Home Office, written after the inquest:

        "With ref. to yr letter &c. I have to state that the opinion arrived at in this Dept. upon the evidence of Schwarz at the inquest in Eliz. Stride's case is that...."

        Begg suggests that Schwarz's story was believed at the time and that the only reasonable explanation for his testimony not being reported in the newspapers is that Schwarz testified in private and was, he presumes, considered a very important witness.

        He says that the letter was "in the files" but apart from that nothing else.

        Can't back this up from anywhere else, but Paul Begg is, I believe, considered an authority. Shame he didn't continue with the letter, but perhaps, as it was a draft, there wasn't any more.

        Best wishes,
        C4

        Comment

        • Digalittledeeperwatson
          Sergeant
          • Oct 2012
          • 635

          #274
          hey thanks for that

          Originally posted by curious4 View Post
          Hello again DLDWatson,

          Don't know if I can rely on any of my books now, but found this in Paul Begg's book "The Definitive Story", which suggests that Schwarz WAS at the inquest, but gave his evidence in camera. He cites a draft letter from Sir Robert Anderson to the Home Office, written after the inquest:

          "With ref. to yr letter &c. I have to state that the opinion arrived at in this Dept. upon the evidence of Schwarz at the inquest in Eliz. Stride's case is that...."

          Begg suggests that Schwarz's story was believed at the time and that the only reasonable explanation for his testimony not being reported in the newspapers is that Schwarz testified in private and was, he presumes, considered a very important witness.

          He says that the letter was "in the files" but apart from that nothing else.

          Can't back this up from anywhere else, but Paul Begg is, I believe, considered an authority. Shame he didn't continue with the letter, but perhaps, as it was a draft, there wasn't any more.

          Best wishes,
          C4
          A witness testifying or not at an inquest doesn't invalidate them. As I've read over and over again the point of an inquest is to determine cause of death. Schwartz not speaking English is one good reason to keep him from getting up there. The only thing I can think of that could support his statement is the bruising. It is very late/early here so brain is way below optimal. Anything else come to mind anyone?
          Valour pleases Crom.

          Comment

          • Jon Guy
            Assistant Commissioner
            • Feb 2008
            • 3156

            #275
            Hi Lynn

            Originally posted by lynn cates View Post
            Absolutely. Little doubt but that Polly and Annie shared a similar fate.
            I don`t think anyone has any doubts about that .


            -right down to the twin cuts.
            Like Eddowes and McKenzie.

            Comment

            • Paddy
              Sergeant
              • Jul 2009
              • 842

              #276
              From National Archives site Re Schwartz at Inquest

              Reference:
              MEPO 3/140

              Description:
              Elizabeth Stride (29 Sept 1888): Draft letter to Home Office regarding the evidence of Israel Schwartz given at the inques

              Folio No: 207
              Date: 1888 Nov 5
              Held by:
              The National Archives, Kew
              Public Record

              Comment

              • DVV
                Suspended
                • Apr 2008
                • 6014

                #277
                Originally posted by Jon Guy View Post
                Hello
                If he saw the murder occur he may not have realised it.
                Have you seen the murder of Meredith Hunter by Hells Angels at the Rolling Stones gig at Altamont. At first look it appears like some kind of scuffle but in reality he was been stabbed.
                Was there a delay in reporting what he`d seen? He went to the Police station to make a statement on the Sunday afternoon.
                Hi Jon,

                Indeed, he witnessed no murder and did not delay.
                Plus, he didn't know Liz.
                Nothing to do with Hutch.

                Cheers mon ami

                Comment

                • curious4
                  Chief Inspector
                  • Mar 2010
                  • 1749

                  #278
                  Confidence

                  Hello Paddy,

                  Thank you - this goes some way towards restoring my faith in my JTR library. Not that I blindly accept everything I read, but I would expect basic facts to be more or less trustworthy.

                  Hello DLDWatson,

                  I thought the main objection to Schwarz was that he was said not to have given evidence at the inquest and that this was because the police doubted his statement. Wrong!

                  Best wishes,
                  C4

                  Comment

                  • curious4
                    Chief Inspector
                    • Mar 2010
                    • 1749

                    #279
                    Hello Lynn,

                    Have now seen your re-enactment (sadly without sound), and yes, with you as to the grabbing of the scarf, but Liz was wearing a square "folded cornerwise". Don`t know about Liz, but I would tie this loosely at the front. Her assailant would then only have to grab both ends, from the side, from behind, or in front (my personal choice) and pull to tighten it enough to choke her.

                    Not with you that she met her murderer at the club, though. Outside the gates, perhaps.

                    May I also express my admiration for the moustache?

                    Best wishes,
                    Gwyneth
                    Last edited by curious4; 05-10-2013, 05:31 PM.

                    Comment

                    • Digalittledeeperwatson
                      Sergeant
                      • Oct 2012
                      • 635

                      #280
                      Thanks.

                      My library is small and I was unaware of that. But the police believing him doesn't verify the validity of his statement. Belief does not constitute evidence. So what evidence is there that does support his statement?
                      Valour pleases Crom.

                      Comment

                      • curious4
                        Chief Inspector
                        • Mar 2010
                        • 1749

                        #281
                        Evidence

                        Hello DLDWatson,

                        A little off-thread this, but anyway. Wasn't there at the time but presumably the police would have checked with his landlord, neighbours etc. Don't know what would have impressed Anderson, but it seems he did. If he was the recipient of the "Don't contact the police, I know where you live" letter, and provided it was genuine, he may well have been able to identify the killer. (Pure speculation this)

                        Best wishes,
                        C4
                        Last edited by curious4; 05-10-2013, 09:07 PM.

                        Comment

                        • Paddy
                          Sergeant
                          • Jul 2009
                          • 842

                          #282
                          Schwartz's evidence

                          One has to wonder why Schwartz's evidence was held In Camera. I am assuming here thats what happened.

                          For parts of the Inquest to be witheld from the public, there would have to be pretty strong reasons.
                          ie National security, Threat to a person or an Ongoing Police Enquiry (that this evidence was part of)

                          Pat............

                          Comment

                          • lynn cates
                            Commisioner
                            • Aug 2009
                            • 13841

                            #283
                            double or nothing

                            Hello Jon. Thanks.

                            Think you'd better nix Kate from the roll. She doesn't belong there.

                            Cheers.
                            LC

                            Comment

                            • DRoy
                              Sergeant
                              • May 2012
                              • 695

                              #284
                              Paddy & C4,

                              It is Anderson's draft letter but there is nothing to substantiate the comment about Schwartz. He was obviously given incorrect information.

                              You can tell by Baxter's summary to the jury from the inquest that it's quite clear Schwartz didn't testify. There is not one comment in his summary about anything close to what Schwartz is said to have seen.

                              His testimony was not held in camera because he didn't testify.

                              Cheers
                              DRoy

                              Comment

                              • lynn cates
                                Commisioner
                                • Aug 2009
                                • 13841

                                #285
                                goo goo ga joob

                                Hello Gwyneth. Thanks.

                                "Not with you that she met her murderer at the club, though. Outside the gates, perhaps."

                                OK. But she was killed inside them.

                                "May I also express my admiration for the moustache?"

                                Thanks you. Almost a walrus?

                                Cheers.
                                LC

                                Comment

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