Arbeter Fraint's Take

[Roy Corduroy]

Likewise with the Schwartz story. I may be being pretty naive here, and as I don't subscribe to any of the theories that Schwartz was anything other than a witness at the moment (so I'm not with Tom or maria or anyone else on this one ); I would genuinely ask why would we expect Schwartz to be mentioned in the club's press account of what happened after Liz's body was found? Schwartz gave a statement of what he saw to police, only the Star took the story up in detail, other newspapers briefly mentioning someone had witnessed a 'domestic.'
Why would the AF journalists be any the wiser?

I agree and don't see the connection between Schwartz and the club. Nor with Wess. The Echo piece simply has Wess relating he heard about some men chasing down the street. Not Schwartz. Not him translating for Schwartz.

I have a question sort of relating to some thoughts I had on Schwartz but not fully worked through yet-is it true that once a witness has been used to identify a suspect, and he positively ID's someone who is known or later proven to be innocent-that his evidence is classed as no longer reliable and he can't be used as a witness anymore?

I see your point Debs. That could be. It's as good as any reason we can guess as to why Schwartz was not called to testify.

Thanks Lynn and those who helped you.

Roy

[lynn cates]

explanation

Hello Simon, Christer. I had always thought that one of them had intended something like, "I removed them from her hand, by way of the other doctor."

If taken denotatively, of course at least one was in error.

Cheers.
LC

[Simon Wood]

Hi Fisherman,

Thank you. I completely forgot about Blackwell's spillage.

How many doctors does it take to remove cachous from a dead hand?

Answers on a $20 bill, please.

Regards,

Simon

[Fisherman]

Simon!

You forgot this passage - it´s Blackwell, the 5th of October:

"I may add that I removed the cachous from the left hand of the deceased, which was nearly open. The packet was lodged between the thumb and the first finger, and was partially hidden from view. It was I who spilt them in removing them from the hand."

The best,
Fisherman

[Simon Wood]

Hi Lynn,

It's easier to knit fog.

Stride Inquest—3rd October

[Doctor Phillips]—"The left arm was extended, and there was a packet of cachous in the left hand. A number of these were in the gutter. I took them from her hand and handed them to Dr. Blackwell."

Stride Inquest—5th October

[Doctor Blackwell]—"I removed the cachous from the left hand, which was nearly open. The packet had lodged between the thumb and fourth finger, and had become almost hidden. That accounted for it not having been seen by several of those around."

Regards,

Simon

[lynn cates]

thanks

Hello Christer. Thanks. I see what you mean.

Cheers.
LC

[Fisherman]

Lynn:
"I thought the packet was lodged between thumb and forefinger? If so, sounds a bit precarious."

I am not sure that we can conclude that it was lodged between the fingertips, Lynn. The position of the thumb in a relaxed hand is opposite the forefinger, and so if it was lodged, it would arguably be precisely there. We also know that the tablets remained inside the packet up til the moment Blackwell spilled them. That speaks for something else than a fingertip-grip.

The best,
Fisherman

[lynn cates]

thumb and forefinger

Hello Christer. Thanks. But I thought the packet was lodged between thumb and forefinger? If so, sounds a bit precarious.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

account

Hello Maria. OK, there could have been such an interruption by a member. But why should one suppose that? Is it not to provide an account for the lack of mutilation?

And why account for that? Well, Liz was "supposed" to be a "Ripper" victim.

Cheers.
LC

[Fisherman]

Lynn:

" In my readings, I have found 2 kinds of cachous. The candy kind look like the little sugary things that go on a decorated cake. They are quite fragile and one wonders, a fortiori, how they survived her purported assault?"

If they were safely tucked away in her hand, as Blackwell implies, then that would have done the trick, I suppose. He offered the view that her hand was tightly clenched from the outset, then opening gradually as her life poured out of her.
Besides, I think that there must have been heaps of different cachous/sweetmeats/candy about, and I vividly remember from my own childhood that one sometimes had the bad luck of purchasing old candy, that had gone all hard.

All the best, Lynn!

Fisherman

[mariab]

"Why are you so totally against a “mutilatus interruptus“, Lynn?"
Because it is a deus ex machina. IF there was an interruption, it was more likely by a member going out the back door.

OK, get you. Why not.

If not Fraff, perhaps the Yaffa chap? He seems to have been working with Krantz/Rombro.

The Fraff name sounds so cute though, lol. Perfect name for a pet. Yaffa sounds like a creature from a George Lucas flick. :-) Gilman (Gilligan?) is total news to me, but then again, still learning.

Maria, the accounts of someone seeing a domestic don't give Schwartz' name but I think it is the general consensus that it is Scwartz being refered to? That's what I've always assumed other were saying.

OK, get you.

Right, I understand the Schwartz discussion now, Maria. Is any of that lot a proven fact?

Depends on what you mean proven. The William Wess Echo interview is pretty clear to me. And I'll do everything to nail the anarchist orator Schwartz from 1902-1905, who reportedly changed his first name, was filed by the French secret police as "Polish/Hungarian", was documentedly acquainted with William Wess, and is rumoured to have spoken bad English. By the by, did you know that Roy Cordyroy conducted a search in the old Street Directories (which is a listing of businesses, not a census) for Liberty Hall, where Schwartz and Alladin were organizing anarchist meetings in the 1900s, and interestingly enough, the address for Liberty Hall didn't come up as Liberty Hall, but as the business of an Angel Schwartz, alternatively listed as Samuel Angel Schwartz. This coincides with the Schwartz orator having been listed just ONCE as “A. Schwartz“ in the French police reports. In 2 other French police reports, the exact same anarchist is listed as “N. Schwartz“. There's a Nathan Schwartz in Whitechapel censuses with a son named Israel. This is a bit of a mess to research, but I'll re-do the censuses and Yiddish databases at some point in the near future. And I'd endlessly appreciate your help and expertise, if you wish to help me with ideas.

Regarding the witness thing- I was just wondering, Maria. I haven't thought about it too deeply yet like I said. I've come across it happening in other police records of the period is all and wondered if it was a legal thing.

Hmm, if you have a precedent, it might even be legal. Hunter might know. I know for a fact that in the US today a witness having talked to the press cannot be subpoenaed in Court. I was reading about this of lately, not sure which case, it might have been about the My Lai Vietnam massacre and the photographers. Though now that I think about it, Elizabeth Smart was on every talk show this side of the moon and she still testified in court against her abductors. Gotta ask a lawyer about how it works.

[Phil Carter]

Thanks. I'm pleased to have been of some help in bringing such an interesting article to light, but all I did was locate online a copiable holding of AF and order copies - a tiny contribution in comparison with Lynn's efforts in getting the text translated. I should also mention that Rob House kindly assisted in arranging the payment for the copies.

Hello Chris,

May I also add my thanks for both yours and Rob's time, finances and efforts in helping to bring this before the community. From this part it is very appreciated.

Kindly

Phil

[lynn cates]

cachous

Hello Christer. In my readings, I have found 2 kinds of cachous. The candy kind look like the little sugary things that go on a decorated cake. They are quite fragile and one wonders, a fortiori, how they survived her purported assault?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

thanks

Hello Chris. Then thanks to you AND Rob both.

I looked all over for months, but all I could find was a December issue. October is MUCH better.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

varia

Hello Debs. Thanks. It was my pleasure.

"Re-the grapes. I'm with Maria and Tom on this. The club-men were the original source of the grape story in all the press reports. I would find it odder if there was no mention of the grapes in the clubs own account.'

That makes sense to me.

"Likewise with the Schwartz story. I may be being pretty naive here, and as I don't subscribe to any of the theories that Schwartz was anything other than a witness at the moment (so I'm not with Tom or maria or anyone else on this one ); I would genuinely ask why would we expect Schwartz to be mentioned in the club's press account of what happened after Liz's body was found?"

Well, I would have expected a mention of Schwartz along with a recounting--however brief--of the "Scotsman" story. For completeness.

"Schwartz gave a statement of what he saw to police, only the Star took the story up in detail, other newspapers briefly mentioning someone had witnessed a 'domestic.'
Why would the AF journalists be any the wiser?"

Not wiser, just supplying a bit of extant details.

"I have a question sort of relating to some thoughts I had on Schwartz but not fully worked through yet-is it true that once a witness has been used to identify a suspect, and he positively ID's someone who is known or later proven to be innocent-that his evidence is classed as no longer reliable and he can't be used as a witness anymore?"

Unofficially, that is true. Note what was written of Packer by The Met when his story shifted.

Cheers.
LC