Arbeter Fraint's Take

[mariab]

pot pourri post

Cool that Debs is looking up those 3 anarchists. As I said, willing to bet that Gilyarovsky is the correct transliteration for Isaac Kozebrodsky.

To Lynn about trusting sources:
NO source can be trusted at 100%. What this AF report transparently gives us is the Club's agenda. Compared to the other newspaper reports, it gives us several hints which can help us attain an interpretation of the events on Berner Street. Hint #1: The police was pressuring the Club, also about their cigar contraband. Hint #2: No trace of Schwartz. This requires an explanation, and I might have one. #3: Time of death and the "grapes" are not important in this report in my opinion, as they are mentioned only en passant. What this story concentrates in is the clubmembers' wrath against the police and their feeling pressured. Plus compassion about the slain prostitutes.

Maria, call me a crackpot--I've been called that before--but I sincerely believe that one of the lads saw Liz being done. And I believe the clock read 12:40-12:45. And THAT is what inspired the time of the Schwartz story.

Lynn, I'm aware since a good while ago that this is the theory that you endorse, and I would NEVER call you a crackpot. ;-)
My own theory is that several Club members (though probably not Schwartz) might have seen Stride together with her assailant and might have even thrown Stride out of the Yard shortly before her death. The IWEC possibly already had their own opinion on who did Stride. And THAT (in my interpretation) is what inspired the Schwartz story (with Pipeman thrown in prominently, but without directly implicating him).

Quote mariab: Diemshitz got duped on this
When, where & by whom?

On Sept. 30 1888, in Dutfields' Yard, by his own eyesight.

PC Lamb arrived shortly before Dr. Johnston, but it was Johnston who reportedly opened Stride's dress and examined her neck wound, THEN took her pulse on her wrist. Fresh, semi-clotted blood would run from her wrist to her palm/fingers. This is the only plausible explanation for the "grapes" since we know (and the police knew) that Packer lied.

You are required to provide independent references, police, doctors, etc. to substantiate these claims, Maria.

I'll provide all of this in my article. For starters, just read the inquest Wickerman.

[Wickerman]

Hello Phil. Well, I just wish I knew how far to trust it.

Regardless, it is nice to have another perspective.
Thanks again..

Regards, Jon S.

[lynn cates]

discussion

Hello Jon. Actually, this seems JUST the thread for such discussion. When I saw the grape story and the unusual time, I hoped that there would be discussion.

Have at thee. (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

Hello Jon, Maria. Ah! Good to hear a family spat again. Good old Liz has been dormant for awhile. Glad she woke up.

So, where's Christer?

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn.
Well, it's about time some of these "so-called" facts were put up to scrutiny, but this is the wrong thread to do it though.
Offering an explanation is quite a different matter to insisting that this explanation is actually a fact.
To take this approach is to do a great disservice to Ripper research.

Regards, Jon S.

[lynn cates]

research

Hello Phil. Well, I just wish I knew how far to trust it.

Also wish I knew about those three new people. I think that Debs has already begun sniffing them out.

More new research.

Cheers.
LC

[Phil Carter]

Hello Lynn,

I wonder why I get the odd feeling that some, after reading this very much 'at the scene' 'on the spot, people involved' report will be frantically book looking-up, triple checking, re-writing and reason/excuse making. Schwartz....who?
How long before this article is deemed 'unreliable'?

Best wishes

Phil

[Wickerman]

Just to clarify: There was NO grapestalk found in the Yard and the fruit stains on Stride's handkerchief were old.

You are required to provide independent references, police, doctors, etc. to substantiate these claims, Maria.

Regards, Jon S.

[lynn cates]

spat

Hello Jon, Maria. Ah! Good to hear a family spat again. Good old Liz has been dormant for awhile. Glad she woke up.

So, where's Christer?

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

Oh Lynn, don't worry about the grapes. It's a known fact .....

Oops, here we are again, inventing our own 'facts'.

Diemshitz got duped on this

When, where & by whom?

The "grapes" were most plausibly blood "clots" tranferred from her neck to her hand by Dr. Johnston when he examined the body and checked her pulse

Actually this is not true.
I think it was PC Lamb who felt the blood to see if it was clotted, then felt her wrist, before Johnston arrived.
He was the one who transferred the blood to her wrist. There was no clotted blood in her hands, it was on her wrist.
She couldn't hold grapes on her wrist

No, the action of PC Lamb taking hold of her wrist would dislodge the few remaining grapes which fell down the front of her chest to the mud, between her body and the wall. Which was why no-one could see them after that.


Simple...

And I was sure that good old Wick would get motivated to start about Packer and his “suspect“ all over again.

I will huff, & puff, until you admit your peccadilloes !


Regards, Jon S.

[lynn cates]

imagine that

Hello Maria. Yes, I've heard it before, but it paints an odd picture. Try visualising it and you'll see what I mean.

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

I'm surprised you weren't aware of this Lynn. The press was full of it for a couple days. "Cachous in her left hand, grapes in her right". LOL. (Apple in her mouth? Apologies for the disrespectful pun.)

Just to clarify: There was NO grapestalk found in the Yard and the fruit stains on Stride's handkerchief were old.

[lynn cates]

3 cheers for Chris.

Hello All. I think a HUGE thanks goes to Chris Phillips, for without his hard work, there would be no AF to translate.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

mutilatus interruptus

Hello Maria. Thanks.

"Did you notice that the time the AF gives for the murder to allegedly having occurred fits with Schwartz' testimony? I wonder why that is."

Maria, call me a crackpot--I've been called that before--but I sincerely believe that one of the lads saw Liz being done. And I believe the clock read 12:40-12:45. And THAT is what inspired the time of the Schwartz story.

Notice, by the way, that IF they are right about the time, then Diemshitz could NOT have interrupted the assailant. So, either;

1. A club member did the honours.

or

2. No mutilation was ever intended.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

real handful

Hello Jon. Thanks for that. Sounds odd if she were killed with BOTH hands full.

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

Hello Lynn. You totally cracked me up. :-) And so sorry I forgot that the other AF translated is from Oct. 12. Thus, VERY interesting fact: NO mention of Schwartz whatsoever in the AF issues after the murder, despite William Wess having indirectly mentioned Schwartz in The Echo/The Scotsman. Question is, did Wess approach The Echo, or did they come to him? My gut feeling says, they came to him.

but wonder how they fixed the time? {...} Hearsay? Very well. But from whom? That was NEVER the official story--so far as I know.

Precisely! Did you notice that the time the AF gives for the murder to allegedly having occurred fits with Schwartz' testimony? I wonder why that is. ;-) "Hearsay" was just another interpretation. If they heard it on the street. But I mostly see coincidence here (with Schwartz' testimony).

Yes. I had written off the grapes. Nearly had an infarction when I read that.

Oh Lynn, don't worry about the grapes. It's a known fact that Diemshitz got duped on this and even testified to this at the inquest (if I'm not mistaken). The quote about “grapes“ was in the entire press for a while, at least until the inquest and until the Packer matter got settled by the police. The "grapes" were most plausibly blood "clots" tranferred from her neck to her hand by Dr. Johnston when he examined the body and checked her pulse before Dr. Phillips got there. If you don't have the old Ripper Notes article discussing this (and making much sense), I can xerox it and send it to you.
And I was sure that good old Wick would get motivated to start about Packer and his “suspect“ all over again.