Arbeter Fraint's Take

[Cogidubnus]

An hour ago?

My point being, where did Schwartz's estimate of the time come from? Did he see a clock? Did he hear the church bells toll the hour or half-hour?

Hi Rob

I agree...from Berners Street he can't see a clockface, and when the last strike of the nearest clock (was Christ Church the nearest striking tower?), took place, why should he have taken particular notice of it...

In terms of time estimate, without being previously briefed, I was half an hour out...

Dave

[Wickerman]

Spooner also noted the cachous in Liz's hand, the first to do so. This would suggest that he was a very attentive witness, and I can see no reason to doubt that he did see blood flowing from Liz's throat 4 or 5 minutes after Diemschutz discovered Liz.

Spooner never saw her left hand.

Regards, Jon S.

[Cogidubnus]

The Echo/Scotsman story is a confused account of Diemschitz & Kozebrodski's run for help down Fairclough St. There's nothing more to it than that. Schwartz ran down Berner St. and the nearest railway arch was down by Cable St. or Pinchin St. This story therefore has nothing to do with Schwartz.

Hi Jon

I contend Schwartz and the whole two-man incident just didn't happen...see above

Dave

[robhouse]

OK, I will now guess. Last checked the clock around 6:20. That was about an hour ago? So 7:20? Actual time 7:28. Again not bad.

My point being, where did Schwartz's estimate of the time come from? Did he see a clock? Did he hear the church bells toll the hour or half-hour? When was the last time he "knew" what time it was, and even then, how accurate was it? A clock could easily be off by several minutes. In a best case scenario, Schwartz may have seen a clock recently, and his 12:45 estimate could be accurate with 5 minutes or so. If he hadn't seen a clock in a while (30 minutes? an hour?) his estimate could be off by 10 minutes or more.

The incident he witnessed could have (easily) taken place at 12:53, or even 12:55. Or 12:35. Who is to say?

Again, I ask: where is there any evidence that Schwartz was chased? And does not the Echo article imply a chase going east? Or am I reading too much into it?

Rob H

Rob H

[Wickerman]

I always assumed Schwartz ran either south down Berner Street or west toward Backchurch Lane. According to the Star, he "fled incontinently to his new lodgings" (in Backchurch Lane). Swanson's report says "Schwartz walked away, but finding that he was followed by the second man, he ran so far as the railway arch, but the man did not follow so far."

But it seems the Echo report implies the murderer ran away east down Fairclough St. Is that the way others interpret this?

I wonder if it is possible that the Echo account is actually relating a true event? Is it not possible that someone else chased BS away after Schwartz left the scene? Pipe man may have chased him for example.

RH

The only two people who DID run east down Fairclough St. were Diemschitz & Kozebrodski. And, Schwartz said he ran as far as the railway arch.

Where is there a railway arch on Fairclough St.? - there never was one!

I had asked this earlier in the thread but no-one can find a solution to this problem.

The Echo/Scotsman story is a confused account of Diemschitz & Kozebrodski's run for help down Fairclough St. There's nothing more to it than that. Schwartz ran down Berner St. and the nearest railway arch was down by Cable St. or Pinchin St. This story therefore has nothing to do with Schwartz.

Regards, Jon S.

[Observer]

Hi Observer,

I would say this. Try an experiment... without looking at a clock, guess what time it is right now. Then look at the clock, and post the result. I will do the same here.... I have not looked at a clock in at least an hour.

Guessing it is 5: 15PM. Actual time 5: 19... much better than I expected actually.

Rob H

Hi Rob

Again havn't looked at a clock for over an hour, guessed 10:45 p.m. Actual time 10 :36 p.m.

See what you mean, it seems we guess to the nearest quarter.

Regards

Observer

[Cogidubnus]

My expert was the LA County Coroner.
Does he count?

Hi Simon

(He's Californian after all so it depends how many fingers he can manage....)

Dunno mate...I'll listen to most genuine experts above laymen...so what does he say?

Dave

[Simon Wood]

Hi Dave,

My expert was the LA County Coroner.

Does he count?

Regards,

Simon

[lynn cates]

sitting

Hello Dave.

"So, is Schwartz perhaps translated Lynn? I think he is...the whole two-man set up and Lipski never struck me as realistic...it doesn't fit in with a lone Jack and you know it..."

Could be. The Schwartz story never sat well with me.

Cheers.
LC

[Cogidubnus]

Dr. Blackwell mentioned a pound [16 ounces] of clotted blood and also running blood, which is awkward. But I guess he must have factored both these into consideration before determining Stride's time of death.

Hi Simon

Clearly you need some kind of expert, (which I'm certainly not!), but I thought the following link was interesting...it looks like between a couple of minutes and an hour (if there's been some disturbance/jostling/fiddling with the body)...I also note from elsewhere that high blood alcohol can substantially affect clotting time...

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=CEXNgHj5jkIC&pg=PA176&lpg=PA176&dq=congealed+and+flowing+blood+post+mortem&source=bl&ots=HFuWcgF5OE&sig=krfq55n2QR0SglAeXeh9V8qGNWY&hl=en&sa=X&ei=3J5rT-POHMmq8APTj8DDBg&ved=0CEgQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=congealed%20and%20flowing%20blood%20post%20mortem&f=false

Best wishes
Dave

[Cogidubnus]

Stinks, doesn't it?

Umm, you thinking what I'm thinking?

Cheers.
LC

So, is Schwartz perhaps translated Lynn? I think he is...the whole two-man set up and Lipski never struck me as realistic...it doesn't fit in with a lone Jack and you know it...

Dave

[jason_c]

Hi Rob.

The key word here I believe is "flowing". I stand to be corrected but I'd say that any blood flow would have ceased very shortlly after Liz Stride died. Considering the injury, I'd also say that she would have been dead within a few minutes of recieving the injury. If Schwarz's timing was out, then that's a different kettle of fish. What leads you to believe that Schwartz was mistaken regarding the time he witnessed the attack ?

Regards

Observer

Observer,

Apologies for interrupting, I know you addressed the question to rob.

Would'nt Schwarz's mistaking the time by a few minutes be a more reasonable assumption than assuming Stride was attacked twice in 15 minutes? Or that the Ripper's usual lightning attack lasted 10-15 minutes in Berner Street?

All it would need is for Schwartz timing to be a few minutes out and/or Stride lingering onto life for a few minutes longer than we assume to make it plausible her blood was flowing at 1.05 and that Schwartz had interrupted the attack.

None of the above assumptions are unreasonable.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Observer,

As blood cannot run uphill, Dutfields Yard must have been on a downward incline from the gates.

Dr. Blackwell mentioned a pound [16 ounces] of clotted blood and also running blood, which is awkward. But I guess he must have factored both these into consideration before determining Stride's time of death.

We either believe Dr. Blackwell, or we have good reason to ignore him.

The Ripper interruptus body of opinion chose to ignore him. A bit like Wynne Baxter ignoring Dr. Phillips' estimated time of Chapman's death.

And before you ask, no I cannot explain it. I wish I could.

Regards,

Simon

[Cogidubnus]

I thought it was 8.55pm....it was actually 9.21...hmm

Dave

[robhouse]

Hi Observer,

I would say this. Try an experiment... without looking at a clock, guess what time it is right now. Then look at the clock, and post the result. I will do the same here.... I have not looked at a clock in at least an hour.

Guessing it is 5: 15PM. Actual time 5: 19... much better than I expected actually.

Rob H