Arbeter Fraint's Take

[Debra A]

Not that sort of girl

Hello Debs. No, I meant the standard story where Liz is killed at 1.00 and the fiend is interrupted by Diemshitz. Schwartz was about 12.45.

Cheers.
LC

I'm not a 'timings' sort of person, Lynn. I tend to switch off when it's being discussed, sorry.

[curious]

Hello Velma. Good thinking.

I have read just a bit about Kozebrodsky and, if I recall properly, he emigrated to America. Perhaps I can find a snippet or two later.

Are you suggesting that:

1. He witnessed the event?

2. Perpetrated it?

1 is not unlikely--in my humble opinion. 2? Need a motive here. Best I can do on short notice is to suggest misinterpretation of Stride's presence in the yard followed by his panic. Feels slender.

Cheers.
LC

Are we positive the two names represent the same person?

I came back online (and gotta rush off) to add that perhaps he had witnessed something or even discovered the body, but had decided not to get involved. Then he could have revealed his knowledge without thinking what he was saying.

Edited to point out that just witnessing the event would not necessarily tell him the woman was dead.

or he could have committed the murder --- motive and other details might become clear with a better understanding of the man . . . .

All just strange.

And it all could mean nothing if the writer got the story out of sequence, which could have happened because the people he talked to were upset and talking in circles and otherwise being confusing.

[Debra A]

Just out of curiosity, does anyone know the name Of William Wess's brother who was also at the club that night?

[mariab]

No, I meant the standard story where Liz is killed at 1.00 and the fiend is interrupted by Diemshitz. Schwartz was about 12.45.

Precisely, and the exact same timing is presented in the AF: Murder allegedly occurs at 00.45, Diemshitz finds the body at 1.00. Yet later on Diemshitz goes out and claims he thinks he interrupted the killer. At 1.00 a.m..

And it all could mean nothing if the writer got the story out of sequence, which could have happened because the people he talked to were upset

This is a possibility for both the Echo/Scotsman report and the Star report, which both contain major discrepancies compared to Schwartz' testimony to the police (according to reports by Abberline and Swanson). On the other side, William Wess was not an idiot and it all could have been deliberate.

[mariab]

Just out of curiosity, does anyone know the name Of William Wess's brother who was also at the club that night?

Lynn will know. I seem to recall that Wess' brother was tight with William Morris at his salon or something?

[auspirograph]

Not Melville

Hello Spiro. That is correct. Wess believed that the club was being watched.

Was it Melville, perchance?

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lyn,

No cigar; it was not Melville.

Tom is absolutely correct in his assessment that the more violent anarchists at Berner Street came later, investigations that were conducted by Melville as Littlechild's successor from 1893.

I'm not sure why the assumption is growing that any Special Branch involvement in the Whitechapel murders necessitates implicating "...any clandestine groups"? Perhaps it did or did not. Special Branch was quite a different animal at that time than it's pre-WW1 developments. From 1888 to 1894 especially, it also investigated murder cases impenetrable to CID; the Dr. Cream poisoning case for instance.

All that the documentary evidence supports is that a Special Branch investigation of the Whitechapel murders, headed by Anderson to the knowledge of Littlechild and Swanson, did actually take place.

Perhaps it stems from the misinformed notions of Butterworth or, Trevor Marriott to push Special Branch index ledger dating further away from 1888. All it has managed to achieve is redaction of historical data in efforts to devalue and debunk the Kosminski Konspiracy.

Cheers
Spiro

[lynn cates]

could be

Hello Velma. No, not positive at this point.

Still much research to do.

cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

brother

Hello Debs. I'm supposed to know--I think I posted his signature some time back. Sorry to have forgotten.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Oh, brother.

Hello Maria. Yes, both brothers attended the meetings at Morris' club. But the name eludes me.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Wess' cigar.

Hello Spiro. Drat. Better luck next time.

Cheers.
LC

[curious]

Hello Velma. No, not positive at this point.

Still much research to do.

cheers.
LC

Hi, Lynn,

In a whole new direction, perhaps?

It will be interesting to learn about this person.

[lynn cates]

new direction

Hello Velma. Could be.

Cheers.
LC

[robhouse]

I always assumed Schwartz ran either south down Berner Street or west toward Backchurch Lane. According to the Star, he "fled incontinently to his new lodgings" (in Backchurch Lane). Swanson's report says "Schwartz walked away, but finding that he was followed by the second man, he ran so far as the railway arch, but the man did not follow so far."

But it seems the Echo report implies the murderer ran away east down Fairclough St. Is that the way others interpret this?

I wonder if it is possible that the Echo account is actually relating a true event? Is it not possible that someone else chased BS away after Schwartz left the scene? Pipe man may have chased him for example.

RH

[Jonathan H]

Yes, I think so, since 'Pipeman' becomes 'Knifeman' in Schwarz's press account (the victim was, after all, killed with such a weapon) and he broadly resembles the Gentile-featured 'prole' seen chatting with Eddowes a little while later.

[Phil Carter]

Hello Lynn,

Have you noticed this?


"In the meantime, there was quite a to-do going on inside the club, and everyone ran out into the yard.

After a while the gate and the club were closed and the whole house was guarded. The members who remained inside the club couldn’t get out, since no one was permitted to go in or to go out.
[Regular] police and secret police arrived en masse. Everyone who had been in the club was examined, their hands and their clothing inspected, to see if there were blood stains. "

having read the inquest details where we are told the blood flowed towards the back wall of the club... with everyone walking to anf fro around in pitch black darkness.. asnd the gates of the club were closed so that no-one could get in or out pof the grounds...I would have imagined that someone in that narrow yard stepped in the trail of blood. The article decribes that it is so dark between the two buildings either side of the "alleyway" that one could not see another person properly.. and that when ones eyes got used to it and could make out the lanterns of the police"

There are quite a few people in that little yard.. yet no-one apparently steps in the trial of blood and walks into the main premises after questioning with blood on their shoes/boots. I believe the blood was washed away (5am?) before it got light..

Just an observation


kindly


Phil