Liz Stride Re-Enactment

[Rubyretro]

Ben -I have to say that I disagree with you about BSM and Liz.

I personally would plump for Liz being a victim of JtR, and this seems to fit with her soliciting, going willingly with a client to a dark spot off the street,
being attacked with no time to call out, and clutching the cachous in a 'death grip' with the suddeness of the attack, and the way that her throat was cut. More contentiously, being murdered in proximity to a jewish club.

I can't equate her murder with BSM drawing attention to himself in the Street, with Pipeman standing nearby (even if we agree that Schwartz was genuine and 'unforeseen').

I don't know what to make of BSM -he clearly didn't want Liz to stay in that spot, but I don't think that he'd want any witnesses if he hoped to mutilate her....and wouldn't Pipeman have come forward with such a huge reward offered for JtR's capture ?

Given the 'timeline' Jack couldn't have been far away when Schwartz passed
-but I don't think that he was BSM.

[lynn cates]

bolshoi spasibo

'Ello Dave. Now I thanks ya' an' the missus thanks ya'.

Cheers.
LC

[protohistorian]

No worries Sir, I thank her for being a good sport about what is essentially an unpalatable topic! Dave

[lynn cates]

empathy

Hello Dave. Very unpalatable. Funny, after we finished my wife grew pensive and said solemnly, "Now I have some idea of what that poor girl went through."

Indeed!

Cheers.
LC

[Fisherman]

C d:

"it would be boring as hell if everybody agreed"

Absolutely not! (wouldn´t wanna bore you, C.d!)

Interesting points made that I challenge:

1. "Nine times out of ten, when somebody is pushed into a wall, they hold on to what they are holding in their hands"

Wow! Is there any empirical study on this remarkable assertion? And since we seem to be speaking of some sort of reflex, more or less, why does it not work in the tenth case...?

2. Stride was attacked by BS man.

That may be true and it may be untrue. Obviously, Schwartz says that she was pushed to the ground by BS, but the original move on his behalf was to try and drag Stride along with him, into the street. Therefore, if Stride resisted this and pulled the other way, and if BS man lost his grip, it becomes a very good suggestion that she may have fallen as a result of this. It´s Newton, quite simply. At any rate I think that it may well prove a tad harsh to speak of an "attack", since attacks are always intended, and we cannot possibly know it this was an element at hand in Berner Street. There was a physical exchange of some sort, and Stride fell as a result of it, this much - but no more - is what we can tell.

The best,
Fisherman

[mariab]

To Ben and Lynn Cates:
I won't even dare to ask what's a pocket protector.
Wow, Lynn, you managed to bruise her knee with the pillow and all? Not good...
I wasn't able to watch that You Tube Protohistorian posted, as it wasn't licenced in Germany (which sometimes happen).
I completely insist that people pushed against a wall won't desperately hang on to what they hold in their hands. I'm entitled to contribute on this, having been pushed against a wall more times than I care to remember, starting as a kid (and, interestingly enough, it hasn't stopped...).
To all:
There is the possibility that BS (if he ever existed) was the Ripper. Or even that Pipeman (again, if he ever existed) was the Ripper.

[lynn cates]

qualification

Hello Maria. Well qualified--"if they existed."

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

To Lynn Cates:
Yes, I know. We really have to researsch Israel Schwartz further. How about lists of sweaters, or (ideally) a list of the IWMC members? Did I tell you I wasn't able to locate William Fishman's email address through his alumni? His coordinates or a manner to reach him are not listed there. But perhaps The Grave Maurice still has his email, as they communicated a few years ago.

[harry]

Where were the cachoos in the altercation with BS?probably in her pocket.Maybe in her pocket also when attacked in the yard,and the last action she performed was withdrawing the hand from the pocket,in a futile effort of defence,clutching the cachoos as she did so.
If murder was an intent by BS why didn't he kill her there in the gateway when she was on the ground?Both Schwartz and Pipeman were moving away,and no one else was witness.A quick stab or two would have been all that was needed,taking just a few seconds.

[lynn cates]

lists, etc

Hello Maria. Agreed.

List of IWMEC members? That will be bloody difficult.

Yes, perhaps Maurice still has the email address.

Good luck.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

anomaly

Hello Harry. Your questions presuppose the veracity of Schwartz. Why assume that when it leads us into anomaly?

Cheers.
LC

[Ben]

I'm afraid the observation still stands that if Schwartz told the truth, BS man was almost certainly the killer. Otherwise we're left with a very implausible coincidence of two separate attackers descending on Liz. If people don't consider the behaviour of BS to have been very Jack-like, then it's Jack that needs to be removed from the equation, not BS. If, like me, you don't see the problem with BS man also being Jack, there's no such problem.

All the best,
Ben

[lynn cates]

agreed

Hello Ben. I agree with you. IF Schwartz is telling the truth, then BS man is the culprit.

After all, such a result seems to me the SOLE reason why the story was concocted.

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

Like Ben, I don't necessarily see a problem with BS or Pipeman being Jack. (Again, IF they existed, and as one of many possible scenarios.)

[Rubyretro]

Like Ben, I don't necessarily see a problem with BS or Pipeman being Jack. (Again, IF they existed, and as one of many possible scenarios.)

There is another possibility, though...that Jack was already on the scene with BS and Pipeman, just simply not seen by Schwartz. This could be that
he was standing just inside the yard, in the pitch black when Schwartz passed.

We know that Pipeman left the scene at the same time as Schwartz (possibly corroborated by an independant witness). We don't know what BSM did then..but it is not unbelievable to imagine that he followed on at a slower pace.

This is speculation -but so are most of these scenarios.