Liz Stride Re-Enactment

[lynn cates]

cause

Hello Maria. No, no. I mean what is CAUSING her unconsciousness? There are absolutely no signs of strangulation.

Yes, she held on to the cachous tightly. But so would one in my scenario.

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

Corey 123 wrote:
In truth Elizabeth Stride died in less than a minutes time, so yes, it was sudden.
Come on Corey, we don't have any material proof of this, and the timeline of this particular case is a mess (with what all the different witnesses have claimed). My guess is Stride took much longer to die, even up to 10 minutes perhaps.

Corey 123 wrote:
I also think that the blood resulted from her attempting to alter the blood flow.
Actually I too have thought of that as a possible explanation for the “grapes“ in her right hand, as in, she might have automatically, semiconsciously touched her bleeding throat with her right hand when the assailant left her. But then how come her left hand kept holding on tightly to the cachous while her right hand was moving freely? I honestly believe that Tom Wescott's theory of Johnston having contaminated Stride postmortem by taking her pulse makes much sense. And I know that Fisherman has expressed serious doubts in the possibility that a medical man would contaminate a body, and Fisherman favours the theory that Stride was a domestic killing and her killer had second thoughts after his act and touched her.

[mariab]

Lynn cates wrote:
There are absolutely no signs of strangulation.
Her clenched hand IS a sign of strangulation. Obviously I don't mean fatal, elaborate strangulation with a rope, just a strong stranglehold, immobilizing her and preventing her from breathing until she fell to the ground.

Lynn Cates wrote:
Yes, she held on to the cachous tightly. But so would one in my scenario.
I'm so sorry, Lynn, but I'm not clear on what your scenario implies, besides your (historically correct) position pertaining to the wall. Also, please consider that it's nearly impossible to recreate possible scenarios with the cachous WITHOUT really attempting to strangle or stranglehold somebody – which I don't particularly recommend!
In other words, your wife would have totally been able to throw the cachous to the other side of the room while you were “assaulting“ her. She was physically totally unrestrained to do that, if she wished.

[protohistorian]

less than 3 minutes

Less than a minute is a fair estimate. Severed structures include key elements of the sympathetic nervous system,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sympathetic_trunk

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vagus_nerve

and key elements of the circulatory system.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/External_carotid_artery

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jugular_vein

overview

http://factsfactory.blogspot.com/2008/01/how-long-can-we-survive-without-oxygen.html

It is beyond certainty, not more than 3 minutes unless one wishes to invoke atypical Stride biology and assert that her tissues did not perform in the manner documented by science. Dave

[Phil Carter]

Hello all,

Re. Cachous.

As they were found still within the closed hand, in my view, there are one or two very clear things.

Nobody, I suggest, would try and hold on to a handful of cachous in the middle of a struggle, as the person would most likely need the fingers of the hand to use, either to grip, tear, scratch or push. Also to hold off. There is only one scenario I see for the cachous to remain in the clenched hand under a struggle, that is to punch the assailant.

Therefore, based on the amounts of usage available for an open hand vis a vis a closed one in the possibility of a struggle under confrontation, the open hand would give far more options. Therefore, in my opinion, there was no real struggle. At least not physical. (Possibly oral)

The mere "shock" of sudden attack would, imho, cause a tenseness in the whole body, upon the immediate realisation of violence. If the body WAS relaxed when attacked, the hand would have been open. Therefore, imho, it was not relaxed, ipso facto, it was in a state of tension, hence, closed hand around the cachous.

Just an opinion as I see things though.

best wishes

Phil

[mariab]

To Protohistorian:
Thus I assume that a severed carotid and jugular vein lead to a very quick death due primarily to asphyxiation, not blood loss?
My (obviously amateur!) estimation of the time it required Stride to die was based on two accounts:
1) An incident with a young woman cut in the throat and left for dead who survived in South Africa. http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/criminal_mind/sexual_assault/alison_ripper_rapist/1.html
2) Another incident in South Africa, about a body boarder (friend of acquaintancies) who was attacked by a great white shark on his upper body, managed to paddle back in to the shore (with the help of his friends), but died about 8' minutes later from severe blood loss.
I agree with what Phil Carter said pertaining to clainched fists from stress, but I insist that as a symptom, it's also a dead giveaway (no pun intended) for asphyxiation.

[protohistorian]

Hello Maria, The vagus nerve severance would instantly stop her heart. There would be no further blood flow. Oxygen within her blood in the brain would very quickly be exhausted and cerebral tissue death would ensue within seconds. The 3 minute estimate is VERY generous, and the 1 minute estimate is probably closer to the reality. Dave

[mariab]

Thank you so much, David. Would there be actually any way to save someone's life whose vagus nerve has been severed, if one acted very quickly? I think I've also heard of vagotomy, but I don't think that this practice exists anymore.
Did you look up the link I posted from the South African case? This young woman survived a severed throat from ear to ear (carotid was not cut, obviously) and evisceration, and she's fine today. (I just happen to know about this because I've been to Port Elizabeth, and it's a famous local legend over there.)

[protohistorian]

No worries Maria. I had seen a very similar (or maybe the same) case on t.v. so I did not read it. With the state of medical understanding in 1888, Elizabeth was as good as dead as soon as the vegus, or even sympathetic trunk nerve was severed. At that point her time was determined by her blood oxygen content alone. It would not be a matter of bleeding out so much as the exhaustion of oxygen by cerebral tissue. Dave

[mariab]

Thank you again, David. And I'll personally apologize to Corey for criticizing his assertion (of dead in about one minute) when he turns up. Stupidly I didn't think about asphyxiation, and even more stupidly, I didn't figure out that severed main nerves and arteries are immediately fatal to the heart.

[c.d.]

[QUOTE=Phil Carter;153689]Hello all,

Re. Cachous.

As they were found still within the closed hand, in my view, there are one or two very clear things.

Nobody, I suggest, would try and hold on to a handful of cachous in the middle of a struggle, as the person would most likely need the fingers of the hand to use, either to grip, tear, scratch or push. Also to hold off. There is only one scenario I see for the cachous to remain in the clenched hand under a struggle, that is to punch the assailant.

Therefore, based on the amounts of usage available for an open hand vis a vis a closed one in the possibility of a struggle under confrontation, the open hand would give far more options. Therefore, in my opinion, there was no real struggle. At least not physical. (Possibly oral)

Hi Phil,

I agree completely. That is why I never liked the idea of the BS man (who I believe did exist) as her killer. If he dragged her into the yard, I see her trying to push him off with an open hand as you described and the cachous falling out. The domestic scenario has even more red flags associated with it for me. Eliminate those two scenarios and you have Jack.

c.d.

[c.d.]

But now it is just obvious that it was an assassination. (Think like Sir Charles thought in his October 12th memo.)

Hi Lynn,

I am not clear on what you mean by an assassination.

c.d.

[mariab]

Hi C.D.,
I think Lynn considers the possibility that Stride was killed for provocatory anti-socialist/anti-anarchist/antisemitic purposes outside of the IWMC. I'm not convinced at all by that theory, but I'm willing to conduct a little research in Paris (when I get there) pertaining to the Okhrana criminal activities. It appears that they often recruited detective agencies to help with their disinformation campaign. Does this perhaps ring a bell?
We're not trying to formulate another Royal conspiracy theory, but I thought it can't hurt if I had a look inside the records for Piotr Rachkovsky's activities in Paris and in the Paris criminal records for our pimp friend from the Strand.
By the by, Lynn, I've just read up that Rachkovsky befriended Danish journalist Jules Hansen during his first visit to Paris in 1884, who was a counsellor in the French Ministry of Foreign Affairs. I couldn't find anything online about Hansen. Have you heard of him, was he a pronounced conservative? I'm so sorry, Paris in the 1880s is not at all my field, my forte is up to the late 1830s. Still, I'm pretty aware of the massively rampant antisemitism after France lost the Franco-Prussian war. (Dreyfus affair, anyone?)

C.D. wrote:
That is why I never liked the idea of the BS man (who I believe did exist) as her killer. If he dragged her into the yard, I see her trying to push him off with an open hand as you described and the cachous falling out. The domestic scenario has even more red flags associated with it for me. Eliminate those two scenarios and you have Jack.
Unless she knew BS, and there was a brief reconciliation before he murdered her. (Agreeably, not the most plausible scenario.) Why don't you like the domestic scenario, C.D.? I don't either, but I'm interested in hearing your ideas. I tend to believe it was a Ripper slaying. But I have several suspicions about the manipulation of the investigation AFTER the murder.

[mariab]

By the by, I was just talking to a doctor and she absolutely refuted the possibility that a dying Stride with a severed carotid and a clinched left hand by death convulsions might have been able to move her right hand up to her throat. I don't know how Protohistorian would respond to this. Thus, the Wescott theory of contamination by the first person who examined her appears the most plausible. I know what Fisherman will say about this, but I believe that a shocked, distressed, inexperienced young doctor might have used poor form in his dealing with Stride's body. Unless it was someone from the IWMC who touched her first without saying.

[lynn cates]

varia

Hello Maria.

"Her clenched hand IS a sign of strangulation. Obviously I don't mean fatal, elaborate strangulation with a rope, just a strong stranglehold, immobilizing her and preventing her from breathing until she fell to the ground."

Very well. If by strangulation you refer only to the tightening of the scarf about her throat, I can live with that. Of course that would cause her fists to clench.

"I'm so sorry, Lynn, but I'm not clear on what your scenario implies, besides your (historically correct) position pertaining to the wall."

It implies:

1. The sequence Blackwell endorsed was possible.

2. The cachous were retained.

3. The body position is consonant with the actual one.

4. The scarf has a tight knot and moved to the left.

5. Given the neck's position at the moment of the cut, no spray could reach the wall.

"Also, please consider that it's nearly impossible to recreate possible scenarios with the cachous WITHOUT really attempting to strangle or stranglehold somebody – which I don't particularly recommend!"

I'll say! Actually, I did not pull hard enough on the scarf and my wife's head was not properly abducted. My motivation was safety.

"In other words, your wife would have totally been able to throw the cachous to the other side of the room while you were “assaulting“ her. She was physically totally unrestrained to do that, if she wished."

Of course. So could Liz. But I daresay that the cachous were not foremost in Liz's mind since she had other concerns. But they did wind up grasped between her thumb and forefinger. I claim only that in some scenarios that could NOT happen-- in fact, it could not happen in ANY scenario that includes a protracted scuffle.

Cheers.
LC