A Modern Day BS Man/Liz Encounter

[Abby Normal]

Hello Abby.

"Do you really think I meant all 3 were involved-or are you joking again? "

Pretty much joking. The point being that, after 122 years, no serial killer has been found. So, no--no confusion. I knew what you meant.

Chapman (Klosowski) strikes me as little short of a fiend. If one chap in 1888 was a GENUINE sociopath, it was he. Just out of curiosity, why do you think he killed the C5, given you think he did?

Cheers.
LC

Hi LC
Chapman (Klosowski) strikes me as little short of a fiend. If one chap in 1888 was a GENUINE sociopath, it was he. Just out of curiosity, why do you think he killed the C5, given you think he did?

I don't neccessarily think Chapman definitely was JtR, but that him, along with a handful of other legit suspects, could have possibly been JtR (the others being IMHO Bury, James Kelly, Barnett or GH).

Chapman was a known serial killer of women, was local, had probable surgical skill, fit the witness description. The picture of him with the peaked cap, dark mustache, with knives and guns hung on the wall also is also pretty revealing.
He was contemporary suspect whom Abberline thought was possibly JtR.

If you meant what do I think his motivation was-well thats what serial killers do. They like to kill.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Fisherman,

The Scotsman article cannot be ignored, but as it does not support the Schwartz story other than having taken place at 12.45 am I do think it should also be treated with caution.

The Star story has Schwartz [the innocent witness] being pursued south towards the railway arches in Pinchin Street, whilst the implication in The Scotsman is that the pursued man [the killer] made his escape by running north into Commercial Road, thus neatly tying in with the idea that he was en route for Mitre Square.

Regards,

Simon

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby N,

Sorry, wrong.

Regards,

Simon

Hi Simon

OK (but not in my mind-I think that the shouting of Lipski is the crucial element of the I.S account).

But I am very intrigued by your cryptic response-so please, praytell. Enlighten me.

[lynn cates]

recreation

Hello Abby. Of course, Klosowski killed his 3 wives to get rid of them--presumably he was bored.

Perhaps the C5 was for merely recreational purposes?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

taking requests

Hello Abby.

"I would envision something more along the lines that after I.S. is scared off he pulls Stride into the yard (against her will, obviously) and murders her. And then bolts before mutilations because he is inter[r]upted by L.D.'

I see. So he pulls her into the yard and then cuts her throat? But what about the cachous?

Of course, some who are about to die request a last smoke. Perhaps hers was a last breath freshener?

Cheers.
LC

[Rubyretro]

Lynn, -I read your reply to my scenario, and then went back and read Schwartz's Police statement, and watched the little 'animated' reconstruction.

It doesn't mention BS man coming from the north, and the reconstruction
shows BS man already at the gates of Dutfield Yard when Schwartz walks in from Commercial Street.

There is a newspaper report which has serious differences with the Police Statement, which has Schwartz following a tipsy BS man along the road, but doubt is cast on this report, and Casebook has chosen to use the Police report for the 'animated' reconstruction.

The pub was of course, closed -my mistake was due to remembering that Pipeman came from the door way of the pub.

If the pub was closed, and these weren't club members, we have to imagine what BS man and Pipeman were doing loitering at the spot (if Pipeman was standing back in the closed pub doorway, he wasn't walking anywhere). I still suggest that these men came to the club to hassle members leaving, and instead hassled the very Jewish looking Schwartz -even the Police accepted that the shout of 'Lipsky' was a racial insult. I still think that BS man was trying to dissuade Liz from soliciting for Jewish clients.
Despite threatening her, she would not be dissuaded, nor was she in mortal fear.

Where was JtR ? He may have been one of those men -but I don't think that it was JtRs style to draw attention to himself or have witnesses. I think that he was with the men though -he could easily have been standing in the entrance (in the shadows) of Dutfield's Yard as BS Man pulled her out of the yard.

With Pipeman gone, suppose he played the 'rescuer' for Liz ? 'Come on, Mate -leave the Lady alone now -that's enough for one night..I'm hungry and I want my bed !' He could bid BS goodnight and make as if to leave in the opposite direction, and then when he saw the back of BS a way off, turn back to a grateful Liz, bidding her not to make a noise so that BS won't come back.

He could later claim to his mates that he'd left Liz at the same time as BS, and her murderer must have been a Jew from the club, or he could say that he'd passed a suspicious looking Jew walking towards Dutfield's Yard -none of those men came forward, although there was a Police reward.

[Abby Normal]

Hello Abby.

"I would envision something more along the lines that after I.S. is scared off he pulls Stride into the yard (against her will, obviously) and murders her. And then bolts before mutilations because he is inter[r]upted by L.D.'

I see. So he pulls her into the yard and then cuts her throat? But what about the cachous?

Of course, some who are about to die request a last smoke. Perhaps hers was a last breath freshener?

Cheers.
LC

Hi LC
I see. So he pulls her into the yard and then cuts her throat?
Yup. And maybe even strangles her first.

But what about the cachous?

Of course, some who are about to die request a last smoke. Perhaps hers was a last breath freshener?

Perhaps she had them in her hand the whole(or most of the) time she is walking around with this new man whom she finds intriguing and charming-- flirting and being affectionate and talking with him (and maybe even kissing him).

[c.d.]

If Liz being pushed to the ground was an accident and unintentional, a profuse apology and some extra money might induce her to go back into the yard voluntarily where she takes out the cachous in preparation for oral sex.

c.d.

[lynn cates]

versions

Hello Ruby. Indeed there are different versions. And one without his walking south tipsy fits better for the IS backers. On the other hand, if one wishes to have pipe man chasing IS, the newspaper story is better--after all, a knife presents more incentive to flee than a pipe.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

mock up

Hello Abby.

"Perhaps she had them in her hand the whole (or most of the) time she is walking around with this new man whom she finds intriguing and charming-- flirting and being affectionate and talking with him (and maybe even kissing him)."

Very well. Try taking a piece of paper, place about 6 burned out match tips inside it and fold (be sure they are not smouldering). Now place it between your left thumb and forefinger. Over the course of, say, 15 minutes (your choice here) try simulating hugging and kissing, an assault, a seizure, a strangulation and a cut throat. Now, where are those cachous?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

different tack

Hello CD.

"she takes out the cachous in preparation for oral sex"

Very well, this is taking a different tack. Liz must have expected 1 of 2 things.

1. She expected "Jack" to wait until the cachous had dissolved. Since it takes 10-15 minutes for them to dissolve (as I recall), she must have added, "Now, Ducky, I'll be with you in about 10 minutes. Meanwhile, think about a forty something's body--or not." (Of course, if Aaron were her "escort" the admonition would have been, "Don't start without me, luv." [Couldn't resist.])

2. She expected "Jack" to be a masochist, for if she had fulfilled her contract, whole cachous in mouth, he would have yelped in pain and been no longer able to "rise to the occasion" for a fortnight.

Cheers.
LC

[c.d.]

Hi Lynn,

I probably should have said in order to have them handy for post oral sex if you get my drift.

c.d.

[lynn cates]

the original again

Hello CD. Now we're back to the original (more sensible) scenario again. But check out my reconstruction to Rubyretro above.

(By the way, have you seen the post count on your thread? You are now a rock star.)

Cheers.
LC

[Fisherman]

Hi Simon!

You write "The Star story has Schwartz [the innocent witness] being pursued south towards the railway arches in Pinchin Street, whilst the implication in The Scotsman is that the pursued man [the killer] made his escape by running north into Commercial Road".

I fail to see any such implication, Simon - we both know that Fairclough Street was south of Dutfields yard, and the fact that the Scotsman mentions the connections with Commercial Street only tells us that the writer of the article perhaps points to a route for Mitre Square - but that only constitutes guesswork, and not a word is mentioned about the running man using this route. And Fairclough Street adjoins Backchurch Lane, so it pretty much represents the best way Schwartz could have used to get to his new lodgings. And Backchurch lane ended up at the Pinchin Street railway, so voilá, Simon - that covers things pretty nicely, time schedule, mapping and all.

As for the earlier discussion we had on Wess, the article says that the secretary mentioned that a running man and a pursuer had been seen in Fairclough, not that Wess himself had done so. The wording points to another observer, methinks.

The best,
Fisherman

[c.d.]

Hi Lynn,

Right you are which is why I have never liked the BS man as Liz's killer (although an accidental push is still a possibility). To me, the cachous indicate that Liz is at ease and with a client, i.e., Jack.

c.d.