A Modern Day BS Man/Liz Encounter

[lynn cates]

coincidence

Hello Corey. Quite right. I try not to let the notion of coincidence sway me in one direction OR the other.

Cheers.
LC

[Rubyretro]

Hi -I've been away for the week, so have just got to read this thread with interest..

I hate to say it, but I agree with 'The Good Michael' that there are so many
variables, that we can make the 'facts' fit with our own theory quite easily. For what it's worth -this is is MY theory on Liz's death:

There is the Jewish club meeting, and it has attracted some racist thugs to the location.

Liz is solliciting just outside the meeting, specifically because she knows that
lots of potential customers will be coming out.

A racist thug, attracted by the meeting,
sees her solliciting there, and tries to physically dissuade her from solliciting for Jewish customers, and pull her away.

Israel Schwartz comes along, and one of the 'thugs' threatens him ( maybe the statement
a bit exaggerated from fear).

The man who is JtR is either not far away, in the pub drinking with his racist mates (and hears of Liz and bids 'Goodnight'), or is about to arrive. He has been attracted to the area for the same reason - the club meeting. He kills Liz for precisely the same reason that his 'mate' tried to pull her away, and 'pipman' went after Israel -because she is willing to have sex with Jews, and these men hate Jews.


He has the urge to mutilate, but no time or privacy -so still 'unsatisfied', he
leaves for Mitre Square, where he knows that he will probably find another prostitute looking for customers among other Jewish club members (on who the blame will be placed).

Just to make sure tha a link is established, he loops back to a place that he knows has some graffitti written by himself or a 'mate' earlier, to leave the apron piece on which he cleaned himself, in a hurry, when leaving.

His 'mates' may, or may not, suspect him of being 'Jack' -but they'll never talk to the Police -the time that the Police are looking for a Jewish suspect.

l

[c.d.]

Must be a chilling experience, I´m sure, C.d; my condoleances. Next time over, it will be me, no doubt.

Can´t say I´m looking forward to it.

The best,
Fisherman[/QUOTE]

Just messing with you, my friend.

c.d.

[c.d.]

I started this thread to show how difficult it is to interpret what we see and that things aren't always what they appear to be. As I stated, my first impression was wrong. And God only knows how I would have described what I had seen to the police had I not heard it in English. If we view Schwartz's testimony in the same light, I think it explains a lot.

c.d.

[c.d.]

Hello Lynn,

I have thought of this and what a coincidence that Liz gets attacked supposedly by two people that day. I agree if BS man is the killer, she does not belong in the canon. Then again, there happened many coincidences that day.

Hi Corey,

"Attacked" is a pretty strong word. If you see the BS man encounter as merely a routine occupational hazard, then the coincidence factor is greatly reduced.

c.d.

[Robert]

Hi Lynn

OK, well putting aside some objections, e.g. what if someone in the street saw Diemschutz arriving at the earlier time?, here are one or two considerations that you may or may not find significant, depending on how hysterical you think Diemschutz was :

Suppose that D turns into the yard around 12.40. He sees the body, rushes into the club, and, showing amazing discipline and coordination for anarcho-socialists, everyone agrees to put forward D's arrival to 1 AM.

As it is, the doctors' TOD assessment allows for a 12.40 death. But D wouldn't know this when he concocted his story. Unless he himself made a TOD guesstimate (Dead about 2 minutes, I'd say") or unless the club members performed an amazingly speedy ad hoc investigation themselves (I was in the yard at that time, she wasn't there then"), the TOD could, as far as D knew, have been 12.15 or 12.30. Hence next day, when he asked Schwarz to act out his role, he could for all he knew have been asking Schwarz to tell a story that was open to being completely torpedoed. The only way I can see round this, is if D or at least someone from the club overheard the docs conferring in the yard and heard them mentioning a TOD of not before 12.40. That would be OK if the docs were mentioning actual times but if they were mentioning "within time of my arrival" figures then D would have had to do some good time-keeping as well as some nifty mental arithmetic.

Going back to how hysterical or otherwise D may have been, and how far ahead he might have thought, it seems to me that you are painting him as a rather hysterical, impulsive man but one who is at the same time devilishly cunning!

[Fisherman]

C.d writes:

"If you see the BS man encounter as merely a routine occupational hazard, then the coincidence factor is greatly reduced."

Wisely put, C.d. The occasional disagreement would be there, as would the occasional aggressive punter. But how much of a frame do we have to work with, if we need to allow for a second "assailant"? (I do not think that we have to regard BS man as much of an assailant at all, not from the outset at least).

We have the watchful Mrs Mortimer on post, and it would seem that she stands on that doorstep of hers more or less directly after the Schwartz incident. She hears the famed measured footsteps, and then she goes out and returns back in again only just before Diemschitz arrives at the scene. So we have only very little time in which to bring another potential killer on the stage than BS, unless he came from within the IWMEC.

And speaking of coincidences, would you not say that it seems strange that our girl manages to hit on two men of the same age, clad in the same sort of garments, wearing the same sort of peaked cap, being of the same physical stature, being of the same age and displaying the same sort of respectable general appearance, all within the space of an hour?
I know that it was said that Tabram may have specialized in soldiers, but specializing in spitting images when it comes to punters would not be good for business, methinks.

And the cachous! Let´s realize that she did in all probability NOT hold on to them while being thrown to the ground, while getting up, while being manhandled and shoved into the yard, and when being brought down once again, having her neck sliced open. So, if we want to put another killer in Dutfields yard than BS, we need for her to get rid of him, collect herself, go for her cachous and pull them out, only to meet somebody who arrived one or perhaps two minutes after the BS affair, strike up a conversation (´Ello luv, how ´bout doing the rounds in this ´ere cozy yard with me?), settle for a deal, and go into the yard and have her neck cut, all this in the shortest of time.

So even if we accept the possibility of two men having a go at Stride, there are so many limiting factors involved that my own estimation is that it would be very much of a stretch to try and bring another killer than BS on the scene! And if it WAS him, then Stride went for her cachous with him in her company - and that tells a lot.

The best,
Fisherman

[c.d.]

Hi Fish,

You are attempting to connect the BS man and Jack in time. But consider this scenario -- you walk into a bar two minutes after it has been robbed. There is a lot of commotion. Now that is an amazing coincidence and one that you could tell your friends about. But in no way were you connected to the robber or the robbery. You didn't even no it had occurred until you walked in. Now this could fit Jack as well. If he showed up a couple of minutes after the BS man left, he has plenty of time to do his thing. Coincidence? Maybe. But Jack had to be somewhere on the planet and if he killed Kate then he was somewhere close.

c.d.

[lynn cates]

varia

Hello Robert. If I am right that PC Smith saw a club member chatting up Liz around 12:35, I don't think there was as much danger of being torpedoed as it may seem.

Would the coppers notice a big discrepancy in time? Don't forget that a twit like Kozebrodske forgot the agreed time and placed the discovery of the body at 12:40 as did a couple of other chaps. But how many have noticed that? The first time I spotted all the testimonies referring to "before 1:00" I merely tsked and corrected it. After all, Lewis said 1:00, didn't he?

At any rate, I doubt not that her body was discovered soon--likely as early as 12:45--after it happened. Perhaps she even showed faint signs of life?

Cheers.
LC

[Robert]

Lynn, and they don't summon medical assistance?

[lynn cates]

cross

Hello Robert. Well, did Cross summon aid for Polly?

Cheers.
LC

[Fisherman]

C.d writes:

"...consider this scenario -- you walk into a bar two minutes after it has been robbed. There is a lot of commotion. Now that is an amazing coincidence and one that you could tell your friends about. But in no way were you connected to the robber or the robbery. You didn't even no it had occurred until you walked in. Now this could fit Jack as well."

Ah, C.d, but there is a difference - in the scenario where Jack enters the stage after BS man has left, we have TWO men interacting with the victim, both of them being ready to apply physical force to have their way with her (whatever way that was), whereas in your bank robbery scenario, we have just the one robber. When I enter the scene two minutes after the robbery, I do so with no foul play in mind.
It is not until we get a SECOND robber on stage that this comparison applies to the full! And we also need to look at the fact that if the bank was robbed, it was robbed during opening hours, when people are about in abundance in the type of streets where banks choose to hire premises for banking. So, if we want to use your scenario, we need to make a few changes, perhaps like this:

A small, night-open store in a non-frequented area is robbed at 23.30 PM. Two minutes after that, a guy in the neighbouring house steps out on his doorstep to have a smoke. He sees nobody at all, and returns back in at 22.40. Then, at 22.42, he hears a police car and goes out to take a look, only to learn that the store has been robbed a second time, ten minutes after the first robbery, and the guy who did it got away clean.

This, C.d, would make a fairer comparison, but it is a comparison where we must keep in mind that robbers are very much more frequent than murderers are. So even this story would be a lot less coincidental than the "swop-BS-for-Jack-affair" would have been.

Just noticed that is was a bar and not a bank - but I think my general rasoning stands anyway!

The best,
Fisherman

[c.d.]

Ah, but Fisherman, Liz was a known prostitute standing by herself late at night. Quite a different scenario from her standing in the midst of a Sunday church crowd at noon. You said yourself that aggressive punters come with the territory.

c.d.

[Robert]

But Lynn, Cross went off and spoke to a policeman. He didn't stand around smoking a fag for 20 minutes before deciding to do something.

[Robert]

Lynn, can you remind me why Diemschutz would want to post-date the discovery? What difference would it make to the club? A body is found in the yard. Short of picking up Stride and placing her out in the road, I don't see how the club could dissociate themselves from the body. It was in their yard.