A Modern Day BS Man/Liz Encounter

[lynn cates]

whole cloth

Hello CD. Umm, well no comments, snide or otherwise, because I don't quite understand.

I think "Israel's" (Lewis's?) story was made up from whole cloth. Nothing more complicated than that.

Cheers.
LC

[c.d.]

Hi Lynn,

I mean go back and look at the very first post on this thread. It is one I wrote. Telling someone who is about to intervene or might look like they are about to intervene in a situation not to do so by way of an insult is not out of the ordinary. In fact, it is a good way to get your point across. So Schwartz hearing any kind of insult makes sense and would not appear to be a fabrication.

c.d.

[lynn cates]

story

Hello CD. I have never said (at least that I recall) that Israel's story made no sense. Caeteris paribus, it makes a great deal of sense. It just seems too convenient.

But let's see where we stand. A drunken (OK, tipsy) man is coming down Berner from North to South. Suddenly he stops and accosts Liz. they quarrel and get into a physical altercation.

Sounds like a domestic squabble or something of that sort. But what domestic? If the bloke had come from South to North I'd say, Ah! Michael is coming home from the docks after first spending some money at a pub. He sees Liz and recognises her. "So, there you are you !@#$. Come 'ome this very minute!" He pulls her, she falls, they quarrel. No problem. Later, as she exits the yard, he grabs and cuts.

But the compass is all wrong.

Nor do I need to rehearse the difficulties with having Liz at the gates soliciting.

Here's what I am saying. I think this story was made to coincide with what Diemshitz hurriedly concocted--a drunken gentile bully who did the deed.

And I fully believe that, had another woman besides Liz been killed in, say, Spitalfields, along with Kate's being killed in Aldgate that night, and then had Liz been killed a month later AFTER the "Jack" letter and card, Israel's (Lewis's) story would have been, "Well, I saw this toff wearing a topper. He came down Berner and stopped to talk to the lady. (Funny how the fog swirled around him.) Then they walked up the yard together. Do you suppose he was Jack?"

Cheers.
LC

[Robert]

Lynn, I can't go through the inquest reports now, but I don't think Schwarz got any back-up. It wouldn't have done any harm for one of the members to say "Yes, I did pop out very briefly, and heard a bit of shouting somewhere in the road outside, so I went in again as I'm a peace-loving man." As it is, one gets the feeling that this poor sod Schwarz is being sent in to bat all on his lonesome.

[lynn cates]

right

Hello Robert. I believe you are right. His story does not stack up against what was said by some of the club members.

Of course, I think that stems from those same members committing to a "quickie" between 12:40 and 1:00 (Diemshitz). I think that, afterwards, they were able to add force with the Schwartz business.

Have you had a chance to glimpse at the judge's estimate of Diemshitz's story about the riot? Very unkind and quite revealing of Lewis's proclivity for weaving fairy tales.

Cheers.
LC

[Robert]

I'll get round to it, Lynn.

[Fisherman]

Lynn Cates:

"frankly, I don't put too much stock by appearances"

Well, obviously, Lynn! But when we have a guy of whom it was remarked that he did have a very semitic appearance, such a thing ought to urge us to realize that most people - including the tipsy ones - would have been quite able to make him.

"I know Fish wishes to add that the story was not self-aggrandising and sounds closer to the truth for that reason"

Absolutely, Lynn. It was in fact a good deal more than "not self-aggrandising", since Schwartz actually awarded himself a coward´s role.

There are also other elements, not knit to the question of hero or coward, that makes the whole story ring true. Who would come up with the detail about BS man trying to drag her away from the doorway - and failing! - if it was not true? Who would add the very odd detail that she cried out three times, BUT NOT VERY LOUD! - if it was not true? Let´s just agree that the "normal" story would have BS man attacking her and her crying for help, end of story.

It´s all very fine to question things, but with no substantiation it does not produce any relevant contender to the testified version of events, at least not to my eyes. And speaking about substantiation, was there not a newspaper recording about two men running down one of the streets in question, something that goes very well hand in hand with Schwartz´testimony?

The best,
Fisherman

[c.d.]

It kills me to have to agree with Fisherman but in this instance I think he is spot on.

c.d.

[Fisherman]

Must be a chilling experience, I´m sure, C.d; my condoleances. Next time over, it will be me, no doubt.

Can´t say I´m looking forward to it.

The best,
Fisherman

[lynn cates]

normal story

Hello Fish. Yes, the normal story would be a loud scream. But, as I pointed out above, that would not work--for obvious reasons. (And, had the story spinner been aware of Brown's presence at 12:45, the time for BS would have been moved up to 12:50.)

I don't understand about dragging her away from the door. It was 18 feet from the side door to the gates. That's more of a bum's rush.

Fish, I can see why you need Schwartz and BS man. You accept that the Liz affair was a domestic killing and, frankly, if Israel is telling the truth, it has the earmarks of such. What I can't understand is why a "Jack" theorist would accept the BS man story.

What am I missing?

Cheers.
LC

[The Good Michael]

Lynn,

The BS story has many variables in it. Variables are what allows us to take different courses in our investigation of the case. With Schwartz testimony, it is possible his fear created more of a story than was the reality. "Lipski" is an arguable issue. Who said it? Why? What did it mean?

As Fisherman says, Schwartz appears to be a man of no great bravery. Still, he came forward and made a statement. He doesn't sound dissimilar to many of us.

Again, many variables. It's easy to find a favored route.

Mike

[Robert]

Thinking about the mechanics of this, I'm not sure how it would work.

Let's say that Schwarz goes into the police station, alone, and manages to make it understood that he has info to give, but needs an interpreter. The police would hardly be likely to pick someone from the club to do this.

Or, suppose Schwarz goes into the police station accompanied by someone from the club. Suppose Schwarz is a member of the club. Then we have a situation where a club member makes up a story about a scuffle taking place at the gates of the club, and admits to making a quick exit and leaving a woman to her fate. He doesn't try to get rid of the man from "his" club gates, nor does he go inside to seek assisance from his fellow club members. I don't think this would paint the club in a good light.

Suppose the story is that Schwarz isn't a member, but that somehow someone from the club hears on the grapevine that there is a Hungarian Jew who needs an interpreter, and arranges for someone from the club to go to the station with him. Both Schwarz and the club member have to explain to the police the sequence of events, who heard what and when, and so on, just so as to be able to explain their presence together at the police station. That's a lot that could go wrong and they haven't even started telling their BS story.

[lynn cates]

routes

Hello Michael.

"It's easy to find a favored route."

Absolutely. For some, the story has the ring of truth; for others, not. I am a not.

Although most of those who believe the story do NOT believe BS man to be the slayer of Liz, there is little doubt in my mind but that such was the normal (and intended!) sequel.

If the story be true and BS man were Liz's killer, it seems obvious that we can remove Liz from the canon, for the tale is not congruent with a sexual serial killer who stalks prostitutes. Nor do I see much hope for pipe man serving a similar function as he seems to be retreating from BS man/Liz and going after Israel.

On the other hand, if the story is false . . .

Cheers.
LC

[corey123]

Hello Lynn,

I have thought of this and what a coincidence that Liz gets attacked supposedly by two people that day. I agree if BS man is the killer, she does not belong in the canon. Then again, there happened many coincidences that day.

[lynn cates]

mechanics

Hello Robert. I appreciate your questions/observations. This is, of course, the pathway to discovery or, at very least, respectful disagreement.

Personally, I incline towards the following chronology of damage control.

1. Liz dies around 12:40. Lewis discovers her body very shortly afterwards. He grasps the situation (or at least, its ramifications for the club) and a quick (not to say nervous!) counsel, with a few members, ensues. Primary result: they heard and saw nothing and (to cover the gap in time for said counsel) the "discovery" is pushed forward to 1:00 o'clock.

2. Next morning, Lewis becomes convinced that a better story is needed to deflect attention away from the club. (After all, it is highly unlikely that a good club member would do the murder. Of course, this does not rule out a (continental) police spy from doing so to implicate the club.) He recalls a recent immigrant who has visited the club a time or two, who also possesses acting skills, and who may be willing to help.

3. Schwartz (and perhaps Lewis or Wess or another member) turn up at the police station with, "Looky what I found! Let me translate."

Risky? Of course. With holes? You bet. But don't forget, Lewis did precisely this sort of thing next March with the riot. The barrister saw through it and denounced it as a pack of lies.

But desperate situations call for desperate measures.

Cheers.
LC