A Modern Day BS Man/Liz Encounter

[sleekviper]

Maria,
Not mutilating Stride is important to his time management, if he wants a double. The interruption idea just seems to settle hard considering the location is not exactly ideal for privacy. The "helpless female" idea settles hard also since being female does not make one helpless. If they were dumped in a rough part of town, it might bode well, but they are there alive and well. I think the police thought that way also, or may have in theory.

[mariab]

Sleek,
it's very evident that in Victorian times the police could not begin to comprehend the “concept“ of serial killing. This is one of the reasons why Abberline initially seemed keen to accept Hutchinson's testimony, and why the theory of a Jewish suspect in an asylum remained popular, etc..
The organ removal thing might have been anything from necrophiliac curiosity to collecting trophies, to cannibalism... By the by, another reason I'm not buying that the double event might have been intended as such is that I can't imagine that the Ripper would pass disembowelling Stride on purpose, just so he stayed “clean“ to approach a second unfortunate later on. The evidence shows that the disembowelling part was crucial to the killer, and that he wouldn't pass on it, unless interrupted. Even at Hanbury Street he went on, despite Cadosch having been in very close proximity. What I actually believe is that, had Diemshitz walked inside Dutfield's Yard WITHOUT his pony and carriage, Stride might have ended up disemboweled too.

[sleekviper]

Hello again Maria.
I really am just thinking how the police might have viewed what was happening at the time, and the pattern of organ removal may have been on their minds. If they did, then they are looking at an intelligent killer, since he began knowing the double would happen. The organ removal also served another purpose in history; if someone sent someone to kill a individual or group, bringing back the entire body was not practical, so as proof something had to be removed. Bringing back the scalp was not always accepted proof since some were known to live. If they entertained that notion, this gets rather interesting.

[mariab]

Hello Sleek.
There are some Ripperologists who believe that the double event was intended as in, the Ripper went out that night with the plan to kill two. I don't really buy this, and I firmly believe that he got interrupted (by Diemshitz). I know, can I get more traditional than opting for this? ;-) I also could imagine that the GSG might have had something to do with the Ripper's ire at having been interrupted by the Jews in front of their IWEC. (Despite Monty, who's probably the most experienced Ripperologist on all things Mitre Square, disagreeing with this.)
What I've always wondered is if the Ripper didn't necessarily went through a lot of dry runs. I even wonder if many more people than we can imagine might have witnessed him approaching unfortunates, whom he then for whatever (practical) reasons chose not to attack...

[sleekviper]

Hello Maria. I think that may be a slip. If someone wants a double, the first victim has to be of a fairly quick nature to allow for the second. Carnage to the second is wide open, his goal is met. Just a theory in the works,lol.

[mariab]

To Sleekviper:
I like the Merchant of Venice reference.
Sleek, please consider the “evolution“ in the carnage from victim to victim. I'm one of the people who place Tabram (and Emma Smith, and Annie Milwood) in the mix too.

[sleekviper]

Well if he takes five, he does it as a kill, take two organs, kill, take two organs, one and done. An organ for a victim. Somebody is taking his "pound of flesh"

[lynn cates]

ah one, ah two

Hello Viper. Well, if you take Annie's uterus and Kate's uterus and kidney, then add MJ's heart . . .

Of course, some of this is still disputed.

Cheers.
LC

[sleekviper]

Well Lynn, lol, from the C5, may be I counted wrong, but the missing organs, are there 5 missing? granted some are not in the whole state, but can it be said that 5 are missing?

[lynn cates]

officer, what do YOU think?

Hello Viper. Hmm. was it something like "bloody Ripper" or perhaps "!@#$%"? (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[sleekviper]

Well Lynn, I hope that you are right about no wasted time on a scenario, I have one now for the C5, I think I know what the police were really thinking.

[mariab]

Adam Went wrote:
which has led me to the conclusion in the past that Pipeman might have been standing on a ledge or step of some sort, sheltering from the miserable weather with his pipe, which added several inches to his actual height –
I seem to remember this from some thread.
I know how difficult it is for witnesses to tell height accurately. And for Pipeman's height I'm not saying “freak“, I'm just saying “out of the ordinary“. We don't even know if Schwartz concocted his story from scratch and if Pipeman never existed, but if he did, it appears that Schwartz would have been equally aware of Pipeman as of BS, since he was briefly under the impression that Pipeman was following him, even chasing him. As for the other witnesses, apparently nobody else noticed Pipeman.

[Tom_Wescott]

There were crowds outside it for a few days after the murder and a riot, probably people were shouting anti-semitic nonsense. It wouldn't surprise me that they invented a story were gentiles killed Liz in order to take the heat of them.

But I can't see the IWEC doing anything sinister in this instance, from what we know. They were not standing around for 15 mins deciding what to do when they found Liz, unless Mrs Mortimer was completely wrong with her timing - as was Goldstein, and I find Mrs Mortimer probably to be the most realiable witness in the Stride murder imo.

Hi Garza. I think you misunderstood my post. Please read again. I was essentially agreeing that the clubmen were not doing anything particularly sinister, but may have been complicit in some cover-up to save their own butts. Having said that, it's all conjecture.

I too believe Mrs. Mortimer is an important witness, but was pointing out that her impression of the man with the black bag was that he was probably a club member. This proved to be true. It has no bearing on her timing.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Adam Went]

Mariab:

To be honest, and just in my humble opinion, I think it’s something of a fallacy about the height of people in Victorian London……yes, modern day people are bigger and taller overall, but this whole thing about 6 foot tall people being some rare species - some freak that everybody would notice and there could only be one possible candidate in all of the East End - I don’t buy.

The other thing to remember is that the majority of major witness descriptions mention a man of fairly average height, perhaps 2-3 inches taller than the women he was with – which has led me to the conclusion in the past that Pipeman might have been standing on a ledge or step of some sort, sheltering from the miserable weather with his pipe, which added several inches to his actual height – OR, equally as plausible, Schwartz was mistaken, given that his attention would surely have been focused on BS man, the attacker, as opposed to the seemingly harmless figure away from the scene Schwartz walked into…..

Certainly Schwartz himself noted nothing so significant about his height or build that would suggest it was an odd occurrence to him to come across such a person.

Cheers,
Adam.

[mariab]

heavy research agenda ;-)

Hello Lynn.
I'm not totally buying Dr. Barnardo's tale, obviously.
Ouch, Lynn, I feel quite a bit sick. But Africola helps.
I can't even fathom doing any Ripperological research before finishing up an overdue proposal, an article, and polishing a couple chapters from my book to send to the editor. If you can believe it, everytime I'm going to sleep, I'm having nightmares about these deadlines. (Well, mostly about my German boss and about the editor.) But in about mid January I hope that all of this is done, so Ripperology it'll be again. And in the meantime, I might at least manage to read the (virtual) pile of electronic mags that are a-waiting.