Did jack kill liz stride?

[The Good Michael]

Ive said this Ripper fellow rips...thats why the letter of the 27th nicknamed him as such....ergo, ...no ripping, no interruption....likely no Ripper.

Nonsense. A dead prostitute late at night with a cut throat right under the noses of other people nearby is evidence of interruption because the alternative is to look for another slitter of prostitutes' throats who got away at a time when there weren't any others, and at a time when very few women were murdered by any means in a given year. This is evidence of the same killer doing it and if it was the same killer, he couldn't do what he wanted to do. We know that time was short for the murderer. You yourself in the past have argued for the possibility of the murderer still being there in the shadows when Diemschitz came up. The timing was so tight that that is still a possibility. The evidence isn't physical because it cannot be if there was an interruption. So by always telling everyone to look for the evidence is like telling someone to prove there is no Easter Bunny. The evidence is in a logical pattern of thought that tells us, based upon that fall in 1888, that area of London, that class of woman, that means of dispatching a victim (leaving out the things that couldn't be done because of timing), the similarity of weapon, the deeper cut on the left side of the neck that did the killing...all these things logically tell a rational person, that the probablity leans in the direction of the same killer. All this crap about body position, cachous, dating, flowers, nicer clothing, non-solicitation, Radical conspiracies...it really is all crap. Your telling people they are wrong, is the biggest steaming pile of crap because you don't friggin' know. You don't know if it was an interruption or not. You don't know if it was JTR just pissed off and killing a woman as a one-off. No one knows.

Cheers,

Mike

[Tom_Wescott]

Mortimer not believed by police?

You constantly cite Mrs. Mortimer yet Stewart has pointed out that she did not give an official statement to the police and they apparently did not give much credence to her story.

Hi Ceeds. Far be it from me to disagree with Stewart, but of course she gave a police statement. How could she escape it? I'd be surprised if Stewart actually said this. All nearby residents gave statements, such as Matthew Packer. Not only this, but Swanson actually mentions Fanny Mortimer in his Oct. 19th report and seems to fully believe her story, even mentioning that the man she saw came to the station and cleared himself. Few witnesses enjoy this kind of corroboration. For this reason, I consider Fanny the 'Rosetta Stone' witness of the Berner Street murder.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[c.d.]

Hello Tom,

It appears that I have gotten confused. Not the first time. Apologies to all, especially Stewart.

c.d.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Good Michael,

I don't understand the overbearing significance that's being placed on Stride's body position myself, or how this negates anything that Schwartz said he saw. I'm not saying anybody's wrong, just that I don't yet understand the argument that Lynn and Mike are making, assuming it's even the same argument.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[The Good Michael]

I don't understand the overbearing significance that's being placed on Stride's body position myself, or how this negates anything that Schwartz said he saw. I'm not saying anybody's wrong, just that I don't yet understand the argument that Lynn and Mike are making, assuming it's even the same argument.

Hey Tom,

I don't know exactly either because there's a sneakiness about it all much like the Fenian conspiracy people exchanging little emails in order to adhere to some general idea, but without really giving a detailed plan for fear of being laughed at and rightly so. I believe what is going on is an attempt to tear things apart in order to find a toehold. It's all connected to the Berner Boys and a huge cover-up, something we, you and I and a few others talked about 6 or 7 years ago, but realized it wasn't going anywhere.

And now that I'm there, why would Wess and company create a cover story involving Schwartz and Diemschitz and everyone else when all they had to do was toss the corpse in Diemschitz cart and haul it down to a Catholic church.

Anyway, I get tired of non-traditional thinkers believing others are too stupid to see the light.

Cheers,

Mike

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi GM,

I suppose I would consider myself a non-traditional thinker in that I challenge a number of traditional ideas, but I'd like to think I do so on the basis of evidence. 90% of Ripperologists have a blindspot when it comes to Stride. I have no idea why. It's always been this way. Probably always will be in spite of my efforts to correct the record.
I do think it's possible that Schwartz was connected to the club, and it makes sense to me that Wess would want to do 'damage control' to protect the club. The problem is, I have no evidence to support this. I didn't years ago when I first proposed this theory and I don't now. And no one else has taken these ideas even a step further. So it bothers me that certain others have taken this hypothesis and continue to repeat it as dogma. Next thing you know I have a newbie feeding a warped version of my own original idea to me as though I'd never heard it before in order to tell me how 'wrong' I am that Schwartz might actually be a legit witness. It's rather surreal, actually. But as a certain poster seems to only post in order to repeat these same garbled ideas ad infinitim, I don't expect it will stop any time soon.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Observer]

soft shoe side stepping

". . . but as I constantly point out Schwartz only saw a woman being pushed to the ground."

Very well. But there were no tears and no mud where her fanny was.

"So I don't understand why you fault him because his story doesn't seem to match your scenario for the killing."

No, I don't fault him for THAT. I fault him because his story does not dovetail with the forensic evidence. Repair that and I'm good with Schwartz.


Cheers.
LC

Here we go again, more evasion. After the push, why does she have to fall on her backside? Why does her clothes have to be torn?

Dr Philips

"Examining her jacket I found that although there was a slight amount of mud on the right side, the left was well plastered with mud."

Unless the body was moved while on the ground, it's possible that the mud on the right side of her jacket came about as a result of the shove she encountered out in the street. She going over on her right side after the shove.

[The Good Michael]

Hi GM,

I suppose I would consider myself a non-traditional thinker in that I challenge a number of traditional ideas, but I'd like to think I do so on the basis of evidence. 90% of Ripperologists have a blindspot when it comes to Stride. I have no idea why. It's always been this way. Probably always will be in spite of my efforts to correct the record.
I do think it's possible that Schwartz was connected to the club, and it makes sense to me that Wess would want to do 'damage control' to protect the club. The problem is, I have no evidence to support this. I didn't years ago when I first proposed this theory and I don't now. And no one else has taken these ideas even a step further. So it bothers me that certain others have taken this hypothesis and continue to repeat it as dogma. Next thing you know I have a newbie feeding a warped version of my own original idea to me as though I'd never heard it before in order to tell me how 'wrong' I am that Schwartz might actually be a legit witness. It's rather surreal, actually. But as a certain poster seems to only post in order to repeat these same garbled ideas ad infinitim, I don't expect it will stop any time soon.

I absolutely believe the club was not a place full of innocent people. But I also don;t buy a conspiracy between all the members. If Schwartz' story was a concoction by the club, it had to have been a long and well-planned concoction and not something made up in the heat of the moment. Much easier to get rid of the body or just leave it and say, "Huh, a dead woman, you say?"

Mike

[Tom_Wescott]

There were only a handful of actual members. The decision would have been made by no more than five and as few as two, one of them being Wess. It would have required no more than them approaching Schwartz, getting him to agree, and feeding him the story to tell, with Wess accompanying him to Leman Street police station to act as interpreter, just as he did with Lyons. And the Star says that Schwartz went with 'a friend' to the station. In contradiction to this, however, is that Wess claimed to have spoken with Pipeman and named Schwartz as the suspect. So go figure.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[c.d.]

The whole club conspiracy is based on the assumption that the club felt the NEED to ward off suspicion. If this had been the first murder that Autumn I might be more inclined to give that idea credence but the Stride murder was preceded by others so I don't see how the club would necessarily become the focus of attention just because the murder was committed in such close proximity.

If I were Schwartz and had been asked to lie on behalf of the club I would have told them to stick it and YOU go out and lie.

To me, the best course of action for the club would have been to cooperate fully with the police which it appears is what they did.

c.d.

[The Good Michael]

There were only a handful of actual members. The decision would have been made by no more than five and as few as two, one of them being Wess. It would have required no more than them approaching Schwartz, getting him to agree, and feeding him the story to tell, with Wess accompanying him to Leman Street police station to act as interpreter, just as he did with Lyons. And the Star says that Schwartz went with 'a friend' to the station. In contradiction to this, however, is that Wess claimed to have spoken with Pipeman and named Schwartz as the suspect. So go figure.

But there were something like 20 people left there at the club. That would be 20 people who may have seen something. Again, get rid of the body. Much simpler.

Mike

[Tom_Wescott]

They wouldn't have been able to reach out to Schwartz until the next morning, of course, at which time nobody unwanted would have remained there.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Wickerman]

I don't think that's what Harding was going for in describing someone who would garrot...he said a tall man, not a man only an inch or two taller than his victim. That would offer zero advantage.

One of the advantages the military claim in using the garotte is that this weapon is a great equalizer. A person adept in the use of the garotte need not be tall, nor strong. A 100 lb woman can bring down a 300 lb man.

[lynn cates]

Hello Tom. Thanks.

I refer to you theory that she was lead into the yard and put against the building at knife point. Then she was ordered to clear her pockets.

That accounts for the forensic evidence.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

compass

Hello (again) Tom.

"I don't understand the overbearing significance that's being placed on Stride's body position myself, or how this negates anything that Schwartz said he saw."

He described a face to face confrontation. Stride's killer attacked from behind.

"I'm not saying anybody's wrong, just that I don't yet understand the argument that Lynn and Mike are making, assuming it's even the same argument."

Not sure either.

What I'm saying is that Liz is either exiting the yard or at least facing east when she died. If, say, she rose after BSM threw her down and began to run INTO the yard, she would have been pulled down with head pointing AWAY from the club.

Cheers.
LC