Did jack kill liz stride?

[corey123]

Lynn,Sox,

I would say he cut the throats of the C5 only once for each cut, the other four, I would say were deeper due to the fact that they were lying on their back whilst he cut the throat, which let him cut with more precision and force.

In Strides case he probally reached around her from the back, while she is standing up, and cuts, which resulted in the form of neck wound found on her.

yours truly

[lynn cates]

choices

Hello Corey. I see nothing problematic here but it does raise the question, why did he choose differently with Liz? Why change when you're on a roll?

Let me guess, um, I have it!

1. He wasn't a robot.

2. He didn't always have a pre-conceived plan.

Maybe that?

The best.
LC

[corey123]

Lynn,

I have actually been asking myself that question for a while.

I have came up with a few answers.

We cant expect that his plans will fall through so maybe something went wrong and he couldnt do the old silence the whore form but had to kill her quick.

Or he could be experimenting, perhaps using a different style for a different type of location because this was by far the smallest area he had killed in so far.

Then another answer(which I dont like but accept as a possibilty) that it was a whole different killer. But not a thug. I stick to what evidence shows me and if it was another killer it was a guy or girl trying something new and didnt have the guts to finish it and left.

All though I do think her to be a ripper victim interupted so yea.

yours truly

[lynn cates]

solicitation

Hello Corey. I have little doubt that Polly and Annie were soliciting when killed. We have their story about going for doss money. But really, have we a shred of evidence that Liz or Kate were soliciting when killed? Yes, I know Liz was a registered (in Sweden) prostitute, but, beyond having read it in the books and opinions, what REAL evidence is there?

The best.
LC

[corey123]

Lynn,

Im sorry but only an blind man would actually say that there is evidence to say the killer of Liz to be a thug.

Honestly, I know you nor mike are one but do pick a story. You guys are going from Fenians to enraged Socialists to thugs to just plain killers.

No there is no evidence saying she was soliciting but unless Jack stalked her he wouldnt know if she was or not. So we can saftly say that the evidence points, well no where.

It is inconclusive, as Iv told Mike we cannot say if she was killed by A thug, jack, or any of the other imaginative killers that have been supposed at one time or another.

[lynn cates]

metaphor

Hello Corey. Let's not sweat the thug business--what's in a name? But at this point, I am confident that neither Liz NOR Kate were soliciting when they were killed. This, of course, ruins the whole case--as far as the Jack business goes.

So permit an observation and then I'm gone. I hope that it does not sound condescending--at least, I do not intend it to be. When I hear discussions of was Jack like X or was it more like Y? it strikes my ear as if one were to say, Was the Easter Bunny always concerned with bringing chocolate eggs to children (nature) or was it a learned behaviour? My desire is to shout, "What Easter Bunny? It's ALL MADE UP!!

The best.
LC

[lynn cates]

groups

Hello Corey. Regarding the rest of your post: did not the Fenians and socialists cooperate together? Are you old enough to remember the PLO and, say, the IRA? Did they never make speeches together? Were they on unfriendly terms?

And were there not thugs in ALL these groups?

The best.
LC

[corey123]

Yes,

Lynn,

I have no doubt that they werent soliciting, but then it comes to the question if he knew they were or not. Also why do we always assume that he picked only prostitutes? I am confident that they all solicited them selves at one point or another so I dont think it mattered that they were soliciting that moment, just that they where prostitutes were evidnece doesnt say nay or yay.

About the thug idea, what do we usually get in domestic murders??Do we ever get a plain throat wound? we usually get a gunshot wound or blunt forced trama. A thug would more likely beat the victim then rob them, which no evidence suggests the motive being theft.

yours truly

[lynn cates]

proatitutes

Hello Corey.

"I have no doubt that they weren[']t soliciting"

Wow. I'm astonished that you see that.

"Also why do we always assume that he picked only prostitutes?"

You see, this question assumes "Jack" and it assumes he wishes to do X, Y and Z to someone. From where I sit, C3, C4 and C5 were not killed because they were prostitutes--that was merely coincidental [if even true in Kate's case]. And I think it unlikely that their killers were the same--although the last 2 could have been.

I think C4 and C5 were snitches (or potentially so). But right now, I need to corroborate a good many facts before I go too far along that line.

The best.
LC

[corey123]

Lynn,

I still think what I think, that all five were the work of a serial killer. But I like to see what you find out, who knows you may be right, but for now, at least to me, you arent. Like I said who knows.

[Sox]

I have no doubt that they werent soliciting, but then it comes to the question if he knew they were or not.

A couple of things here Corey. First of all you are right, there is no direct evidence that they were soliciting. But I think you need to go and read up on what little we do know about what these women were doing before they were killed. Where do you suppose Annie Chapman was going to get the money for a bed at two in the morning? Liz Stride, possibly, is seen with more than one man before she is killed, Polly Nichols is on the prowl for doss money after two in the morning as well.

All the C5, with the possible exception of Kate Eddowes, were most likely soliciting on the nights they were killed, and out of the five I think that the only one that could be described as a hard bitten prostitute was Liz Stride......Kelly maybe, but Stride most certainly.

Annie Chapman did not go into the backyard of No29 to talk about the weather, and Mary Kelly was not taking 'Blotchy' home to darn his socks.

''I would say he cut the throats of the C5 only once for each cut, the other four, I would say were deeper due to the fact that they were lying on their back whilst he cut the throat, which let him cut with more precision and force''.

Well I can tell you one thing for certain, removing a head, using only a knife, requires a degree of skill. No knife, no matter how sharp it is, will cut through bone, you have to find a joint, and even then it is very difficult. For the first two years of my working life I was apprenticed in a Butchers, old style, in an open air market in Liverpool. I think that trying to take off the head became a part of his ritual....maybe that failure resulted in the damage to Kate & Marys faces.

And Lyn, if Kate & Liz were not soliciting then it really does not 'ruin the case' because neither of them were actually killed in an out of the way spot. Liz died next to the side entrance of a club full of people, and Kate was killed in the street. Personally I have never believed that Kate was soliciting on the night she died but in truth, all it would take is.....''scuse me darlin, got a match'?.....and boom, she's dead.

[DVV]

Hi Sox,

On Dec 18 2004, in Pau (France), one Romain Dupuy stabbed to death two nurses, and beheaded one of the victims, then placing her head on a television.
All was done with one knife.
He wasn't a butcher, nor a samourai. Just a young man of 21 years old with strong urges of decapitation (her mother tells us).

Amitiés,
David

[lynn cates]

petitio principii

Hello Corey.

"I still think what I think, that all five were the work of a serial killer."

And that's as it should be. At this point, there is no reason for you to jump ship and think otherwise. Unless you feel a horror at the lacunae of a forensic reconstruction (Liz); or, note the EXTREME disparity in an inquest testimony (John Kelly vis-a-vis Kate), you'd be advised to stick with your sexually crazed lone serial killer.

I entirely see your (and the majority's) point of view. But here's my struggle. A perfectly good suspect (so far as I know) for Polly and Annie's killing is Isenschmidt (spelling varies widely). He was sent to an asylum AFTER the Chapman murder. Now, look in the A-Z and you'll see the typical reason for his dismissal (I paraphrase)--he wasn't the ripper as the killings continued AFTER his incarceration in the asylum.

Do I think he killed C1 and C2? Not necessarily. Do I think he didn't? Not necessarily. But notice how a single petitio principii has altered our line of thought.

The best.
LC

[lynn cates]

errata

Hello Sox.

"Mary Kelly was not taking 'Blotchy' home to darn his socks"

Actually, she was practicing for a duet--Irish folk music ensemble (snicker! no offense).

When I referred to "ruining the case," I did not refer to "the case for a serial killer." I was referring to one of the romantic aspects of the case which drew me to it way back when. (Another being those "taunting" letters.) I regret the lack of clarity.

The best.
LC

[corey123]

So lynn,

Its no longer Fenians?