Did jack kill liz stride?

[Hunter]

Trevor,

The privy was mentioned by the police. They searched it. It is helpful when studying history that is before our time to study the culture, living habits and even the technology. Most residences, like 29 Hanbury for instance, had a small yard... that's where the privy was. The tidy bowl man wasn't available for everyone at that time... especially non- upper class folks who usually didn't get indoor plumbing, telephones and such first. Other places that might be the exception were large public buildings and theatres; which were the first places to see air conditioning installed in the early 20th century.


As to your question Fleetwood, about Liz knowing where the privy was... everyone at that time whether they had been there or not would figure the jon was around back. That's where it usually was.

[Trevor Marriott]

Trevor,

The privy was mentioned by the police. They searched it. It is helpful when studying history that is before our time to study the culture, living habits and even the technology. Most residences, like 29 Hanbury for instance, had a small yard... that's where the privy was. The tidy bowl man wasn't available for everyone at that time... especially non- upper class folks who usually didn't get indoor plumbing, telephones and such first. Other places that might be the exception were large public buildings and theatres; which were the first places to see air conditioning installed in the early 20th century.


As to your question Fleetwood, about Liz knowing where the privy was... everyone at that time whether they had been there or not would figure the jon was around back. That's where it usually was.

But Stride was not round the back she was between the two buildings. Round the back was further down from where she was. As one other poster stated if she wanted a pee she could have gone where she was after all it was dark there. And besides with the club packed with men folk all probably going back and forth to the toilet wherever it was, would she have wanted to put herself amongst them ? But does it really matter whether she went for a pee. or wanted to go for a pee. or never even gave it thought.?

Perhaps someone could post a plan of Dutfields yard to give us some idea of distances. If i remeber right the picture Phillip posted showed a roadway going down to the yard itself where the stables were. Stride was found on that roadway.

[harry]

Caz,
You do not seem to read my posts.I have not considered BS as a pest,on the contrary I have said that it may have been Stride who initiated what happened at the gate.It is not a case of Stride doing any urinating in front of anyone.We do not know why or how she entered the yard.My opinion was that if,as suggested,she could have been in the yard for that purpose,then it only needed a few steps to be in a position where she would not be seen.Why go further?As to the habits of women,I will again back Trevor and state it is also my Knowledge that in more recent times,similar instances occur.
I know it has no relation to Duffield yard,but country people especially,then and now,were and are used to urinating in public though isolated places.The inside of the yard was isolated by darkness.

[c.d.]

Ah, the age old question...to pee or not to pee.

Of course, an impending intestinal requirement (got that one from Seinfeld) might have required a little more privacy and thus the privy. Just saying.

c.d.

[caz]

You Can Go Your Own Way...

Just out of curiosity here.....would she have known there was a toilet at the rear of the place?

Hi Fleetwood Mac (great name btw),

Well there was an easy way to find out. I'm not saying Liz did use the privy, just that it could explain how she went from being fully aware that a man was rudely accosting her at 12.45 (or for Harry, that she was rudely accosting the man), to being taken completely by surprise by her killer, shortly before 1 o'clock.

A five-minute gap in proceedings, during which BS man appeared to push off down Berner and Liz went to the back of the yard, in preference to staying where she had just been shoved around, could explain everything.

I wonder where she would have gone for a number 2, when the need arose? I realise that posh women never poo, but surely Liz would have done at some point. We obviously need Trevor - er - on the job again. I expect he's had dozens of street walkers taking a dump right under his nose.

"And besides with the club packed with men folk all probably going back and forth to the toilet wherever it was, would she have wanted to put herself amongst them ?" Clever Trevor

More to the point, if Trevor is right about this, would the ripper have wanted to perform with all these lavatorial comings and goings? He was nearly sploshed by Cadoche last time round. Better to pull the plug and disappear round the bend in a Mitre Square direction.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

Little anecdote from real life here, just for Trevor...

There are never enough cubicles in the ladies lavs. Clubs and concerts are always a particular nightmare for women, as we line up crossing our legs as the seconds tick by and seem like hours.

At Wembley during a Rod Stewart concert I needed to pay a visit and the line was out the door and stretching on to the crack of doom. So I took my pluck in both hands (no jokes at the back there) and tried the gents, and I can honestly say I felt as safe as houses in there.

If club members were constantly coming in and out of that privy, Liz may well have felt safer amongst them than out on the street at that point.

Love,

Caz
X

[Hunter]

Here is reference to the privies ( waterclosets) in Dutfield's Yard from PC Lambs' testimony. There were two of them ( pointers and setters?)

Just for context; Lamb was being remanded by Baxter for not securing the crime scene quickly enough

PC Lamb- I did not see any person leave. I did not try the front door of the club to see if it was locked. I afterwards went over the cottages, the occupants of which were in bed. I was admitted by men, who came down partly dressed; all the other people were undressed. As to the waterclosets in the yard, one was locked and the other unlocked, but no one was there. There is a recess near the dust-bin.

This recess that Lamb mentions was probably where horse manure was compiled; as the place had been a stable. Imagine the street and the yard being strewn with this excrement. Then imagine it just after the rain. Poor Liz was no doubt lying in it. We forget that this was common everywhere- hence the boot scrapers at the entrance to nearly every door.

I will note that anyone going to the waterclosets from the club side door or the tenements on the opposite side would not have necessarily noticed anyone at the front of the yard; especially if someone was leaning against the wall. ( Liz was found just inches from the wall). I believe it was about 18 feet back before any portion of the yard would have been lit from the kitchen door and the tenaments' on the other side, and even then, that was indirect light. The light from the first floor windows of the club was directed high onto the opposite wall instead of down on the courtyard. It was very narrow here and quite dark.

[c.d.]

"You Can Go Your Own Way"...good one, Caz.

c.d.

[caz]

I should have pulled "The Chain", c.d.

Maybe Liz was relieved to get to the club and sang "Need Your Lav So Bad".

Love,

Caz
X

[c.d.]

Don't forget "You Make Looing Fun."

c.d.

[Trevor Marriott]

Hi Caz

Little anecdote from real life here, just for Trevor...

There are never enough cubicles in the ladies lavs. Clubs and concerts are always a particular nightmare for women, as we line up crossing our legs as the seconds tick by and seem like hours.

At Wembley during a Rod Stewart concert I needed to pay a visit and the line was out the door and stretching on to the crack of doom. So I took my pluck in both hands (no jokes at the back there) and tried the gents, and I can honestly say I felt as safe as houses in there.

If club members were constantly coming in and out of that privy, Liz may well have felt safer amongst them than out on the street at that point.

Love,

But if that had have been the case then she would have been seen and when the police questioned all the members after the murder someone would have said would they not. I think we can close this issue now


Caz
X

[robhouse]

Just wanted to say... hey Tom, nice article in casebook Examiner.

RH

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Rob and THANKS! I'm glad to see Harry Mann is posting here again, since I list him among other regular Stride thread posters in the acknowledgements of my article. I certainly don't agree with all Harry says, but he has made me stop and think more than a few times. If my article makes any sense at all, it's due in large part to the many people who've posted here over the years.

Regarding all this talk of privvies, I have to agree with Trevor that since there's literally zero evidence to indicate Stride had used or intended to use the privvy, there's really very little to discuss. But short of that, Caz knows more about the Stride murder and probably the Ripper murders altogether than 90% of those who post or write on the subject.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Hunter]

But if that had have been the case then she would have been seen and when the police questioned all the members after the murder someone would have said would they not. I think we can close this issue now

Good point. Since it was a problem for the police all along for people to "volunteer" information, what the club members had to say about who they may or may not have seen should be taken with a grain of salt- even their statements that the Yard was not used for immoral purposes. They were in damage control mode.

Tom's point about the privies being irrelevant in this case is true as well. Liz was found dead, inches from the wall, just past the end of the open gate, in the darkest part of the yard. That is the clue worth considering.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hi Fleetwood Mac (great name btw)

Thanks Caz. You're very kind. Just putting a little soul into Jack's goings on.....

Well there was an easy way to find out. I'm not saying Liz did use the privy, just that it could explain how she went from being fully aware that a man was rudely accosting her at 12.45 (or for Harry, that she was rudely accosting the man), to being taken completely by surprise by her killer, shortly before 1 o'clock.

I'd go with what you/Tom/Hunter are saying in that it's fair to say she would have assumed there was a toilet knocking around at the back.

Must say though I'd go with the simplest explanation. That being Liz Stride was happy to go to that spot with Jack. No real mystery surrounding it.

I suppose this does have implications for BS man.

But I'm a firm believer that at least some of these witnesses would have got their times wrong. To me - that just stands to reason - because it's a tricky thing to remember times the following day - easy to get it out by 15 minutes - even half an hour. Clocks or no clocks. There's the event and there's the impression - and the two really aren't the same - and the mind can be led astray by all sorts of visions and imaginations - which is why we're so easily impressed with propaganda and packaging. In my mind - it would be a colossal misjudgement to assume these witnesses recalled the times as they were.

The only time I'd go with as being accurate is the official who turned up at 1.16 - only because I'm assuming he would have had a watch and it would have been part of his job to record the time.