Did jack kill liz stride?

[FrankO]

I actually timed it, Jeff. I made it around two-and-a-half minutes... at a gentle trotting pace

I think Observer is right, Gareth, because that would be a pace of about 2.8 km/hour or 1.7 miles/hour. That would actually be very slow for even a Sunday stroller , considering a normal pace would be around 5 km/hour or 3,1 miles/hour. According to Google Earth the distance from Commercial Road to Dutfield's Yard is about 115 m or 125 yards.

Best,
Frank

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi Observer that could be the veiw looking EAST

I have one looking west and an over lay of your shot from corner.

Jeff

[Jeff Leahy]

Fairclough looking west unfortunately i have an interlace problem from the video...however the over lay seems to work. Jeff

[Sox]

As to 2, the tightly pulled scarf around Stride’s neck and the position she was found in do support Blackwell’s opinion that the killer got hold of the scarf from behind and pulled her backwards. There’s no evidence of this in any of the other cases.

Hiya Frank, the point I was trying to make is this: As you correctly point out it was Blackwells opinion. Liz Stride could have tied the scarf tightly herself. If, as Blackwell thinks, the killer pulled her by the scarf to slit her throat then I would be expecting to see evidence of arterial spray, there was none.

If you take on board Schwartz's statement, then the man he saw assault Liz Stride could also have been responsible for her scarf being tight. In fact, IF you accept Schwartz's statement then the man seen assaulting Liz Stride could quite easily have been Morris Eagle. Once again, the times given would not be exact if you accept that scenario, but possible.

I agree with Jeff, within a thirty minute window, form 12:30 to 01:00, it is possible for all the witnesses to see Liz Stride as she tottered along towards her date with destiny.

....and DAYM those images are big.

[Tom_Wescott]

The Ripper likely manhandled Nichols' face in a manner similar to what we see with Stride on her shoulders and with the scarf.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[perrymason]

That's a very interesting hypothesis, Mike. It does contain a potential flaw, however. Fanny Mortimer, as I'm sure you are aware, claimed that a disturbance emanating from the club yard tempted her back to her front door at approximately one o'clock. Since this disturbance was clearly the noise made by club members as they filtered out into the yard in order to view the body, we do have an element of independent corroboration for the time at which Diemschutz claimed to have discovered Stride.

Best wishes.

Garry Wroe.

Hi Gary,

I believe that Fanny's attention to the noise that is coming from the Clubs passageway confirms that the members were indeed around the body at that time. As I mentioned before, Louis's story about the time he arrives is in question here....there doesnt need to be controversy over when he says he left the yard for help.

Using Fanny and Heschberg and Issac and Spooner, one can construct an arrival time of approx 12:40-12:45...after PC Smith has moved along. The only sounds that Mrs Mortimer hears may well be Isaac's boots when he is sent for help alone by Louis at approximately 12:40-12:45, and Louis's cart being taken to the stables where its kept, then the commotion inside the yard.

Isaac told the press that he alone was called by Louis at around 12:40am, and that Louis sent him alone for help shortly thereafter. Whose to say that Louis "alerted" anyone else at that same time....he alone or with some member or 2 that comes out after seeing Isaac called to the yard might be assessing what to do....a few minutes later a Gilleman shouts upstairs to the members alerting them to the discovery. There is your 1am gathering by the body.

Louis says he then left the yard with Isaac, when Issac says he left alone at 12:40ish, ..... Louis says they both meet Spooner on the way back, (Spooner says he met two people....not that Isaac was one of them)... Issac says he saw no-one until he heads back and sees Eagle and Lamb...which means Isaac is offsite until the Police have arrived...thats why his times dont match Louis's...he could not know ahead of time if any times were being "adjusted" for the clubs protection from the police. Heschberg may have come out after Isaac and hung about for a few minutes with Louis, then headed back inside...maybe he tellls Gilleman what happened.

Interesting that none of those times match Louis's. And again, no one can corroborate his or Israel's activities....so why would we accept the stories verbatim anyway?

This is a suggestion we consider all the statements and discontinue assumptions that what the Club members said was in no way tailored to their own advantage, and that Israel Schwartz is not in fact a "vetted" Inquest witness with story corroboration.

What people who have no connection to the club did not see in this case is equally as important to what they did see.

Best regards

[perrymason]

She is cut once across the throat, C1, C2, and C4 are cut deeply...twice.

Not true. Kate Eddowes received only a single throat slash. And while it is difficult to be certain, Mary Jane Kelly would seem to have suffered a single slash as well.

Don.

Brown is quoted as saying her throat was cut across and then goes into detail about the wound itself and the damage inflicted...he does not say it was a single stroke...and in fairness, he does not say it was 2 strokes. Since cartilage(s) were nicked its probable the knife was used to make the incision then without extracting it, it was forced deeper into her neck on a return stroke.

Regards

[perrymason]

Based on some of the recent posts it seems pointless for me to remain connected with this thread.

Thanks for the interesting perspectives though.

Regards

[Tom_Wescott]

Your theories are probably more appropriate in Pub Talk. You should start a thread there.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Sam Flynn]

I think Observer is right, Gareth, because that would be a pace of about 2.8 km/hour or 1.7 miles/hour.

Well, that's the speed I was going at, then - I really was timing it, by the way - and I wasn't quite as slow as some of the "dawdlers", as Jeff put it Anyway, allowing time for Diemschutz to check his pony and cart (in order to negotiate a couple of turns in the road) two minutes still doesn't sound too far off the mark to me. He surely wouldn't have been galloping down the road at that time of night.

Edit - just noticed Jeff's video still. That's me in the blue shirt:

[perrymason]

Your theories are probably more appropriate in Pub Talk. You should start a thread there.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Right.

The real facts are that an abdominal mutilator is interrupted by a man who 3 witnesses said was inside the yard beside a dead body 20 minutes before he says he even arrived....something no-one corroborates. An obviously flawed argument without any merit lasts this long and you suggest that questioning it should be left as a recreational pursuit.....its a similar thought to one which suggests that anything worth learning has already been learned. Like something has actually been proven using that obviously speculative thinking.

You prove with every post what I stated before,....you and others could care less about the truth, .... clearly the Ripper legend baselines are all speculation without any connective hard evidence, none more glaringly so than the assumption a known abdominal mutilator cuts a throat once and leaves, ..... and yet you continue to espouse them as "the facts".

Precisely why this thread can offer me personally nothing more of interest. Nothing of any importance can come from that perspective...I would think 121 years without any success at doing so might have triggered some trepidation about using the same unqualified or unverified sources, ....but then logic has such a minute role to play in modern mainstream Ripperology,.... so I shouldnt be surprised.

I hinted to you about something I know which might come back and highlight the stubborn Ripperologist's refusals to re-visit unproven and extremely speculative "theories" in the near future....fortunately... I will not be among the parties having to explain their years of adherence to nonsense when that occurs. Backpedaling is fun to watch, but in my opinion, far less fun participating in.

Again, thanks for the perspectives..they are if nothing else, quite fascinating.

Im deleting the thread subscription, so youll understand if I dont reply further.

Cheers

[DVV]

Hi Mike,

pubs are good places.
Invite me 20 pints, and I'm ready to hunt several rippers.

Still confident 19 will be enough to convince you about Fleming...

Amitiés,
David

[Sox]

I hinted to you about something I know which might come back and highlight the stubborn Ripperologist's refusals to re-visit unproven and extremely speculative "theories" in the near future

Hmm, yes. You and 10'000 others who have supposedly held the answers since 1888.

The only flaw is that you steadfastly refuse to accept the possibility that Liz Stride was killed by the same man who later killed Kate Eddowes. And at the end of the day, that is all it is, a possibility.

However.

As several people have pointed out to you over the years, you really do have a startling penchant for stating supposition as fact Michael. Always wise to remember that researcher does not mean investigator I think. And once again, when challenged you spit the dummy out of the pram, not exactly an enviable track record.

You are one of the people on these forums that has championed the 'us and them' myth and helped to turn this website into a war zone between the so called 'traditionalists' and the 'new thinkers' which, I have to say, has all but ruined this website as a research medium.

I have read your theories on Kelly, and more recently on Stride, over the years with some interest, even though I think that neither really have any basis in reality. It is important to note, that most people stick to certain ideas about the Whitechapel Killer & the murders themselves simply because they are the ones that have the firmest basis in reality, the more we stray from the crimes themselves, the further we remove ourselves from the reality of it all.

There are precious few facts about these murders as it is, twisting the few facts that we do have, to fall into line with conspiracy theories, really helps nobody at all.

What is possible Michael, is very rarely what is probable.

[Tom_Wescott]

You prove with every post what I stated before,....you and others could care less about the truth,

Yes, you did say this earlier, about myself, who's published about 15 essays on the Ripper, and Don Souden, who has published about 10 essays and edited about 40 editions of a journal dedicated to a topic you say he could [sic] care less about. And you wonder why you have no credibility with anyone on these boards.

The only flaw is that you steadfastly refuse to accept the possibility that Liz Stride was killed by the same man who later killed Kate Eddowes.

Same with Sam Flynn, so apparently it's a disease not relegated only to the cranks.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Jeff Leahy]

Sorry about the size Sox..they are screen grabs from the dvd and thus HD size.

Jeff